Dear Maya,
I am a guess of your cafe, want to bring a topic as above and looking forward to hear ideas from you and your male and female cafers.
"Feminine", on its definition in dictionary, is "woman like". But think about it, by born, woman has breast, bust and "woman like" internal body structure, those are feminine by nature. So why people often see a woman without high heel and lip stick covered as less feminine?
So, do they mess up feminine and sexual attraction? What's the difference and relationship between them?
Ok, everybody knows and can sense sexual attraction, because it can be purely external. But feminine, mostly are internal characteristic, just like affectionate, soft, tolerant ...one can be strong when she faces a tough situation, mean while, she can be very affectionate when she confronts her beloved one. But it is confusing why people always think mini skirt is more important than a beautiful mind in showing feminine.
If we have sexual attraction battle everywhere, that will be a tiresome disaster.
I think it is enough for me, waiting now...
- posted on 04/13/2004
Snowbaby,
Here is my take on this. There are 3 things involving sexuality. Sex: the physical difference between men and women. Gender: the expectation of a society for men to behave like men and women to behave like women. Sexual orientation: the preference of the sexual partner. These 3 things can be independent from each other.
Feminine is associated with Gender: how a society define what a woman should behave. It is not really the same as sexual attraction, many times it is quite the opposite. In many conservative societies, feminine means being demure and being shy. Wearing mini skirt is considered as an unacceptable behavior.
Nowadays people realize many gender issues are just taboo. A hundred years ago if a woman wears pants she would probably be considered a cross-dresser, now she is free to do so without causing controversities.
But taboo still remains. For instance, is it really true that a feminine mind is "affectionate, soft, tolerant"? Are these characteristics really belong to women biologically, or are they simply social requirements forced upon women? Are men genertically less affectionate, less soft and less tolerant? Or are they hiding these characteristics because the society would perceive them as less masculine? - posted on 04/13/2004
好宝贝:
你出了个大题目哟,够让我拿个博士后的。我要说的这些没什么人谈过。这个题目很容易往俗了谈,往形而下去谈,但是在玛雅的咖啡店里,我们还是形而上一点,不过实战技巧,玛雅也会适时传授,这难免有诲淫诲盗之嫌,但为了大家的利益,玛雅愿为女人的自由解放牺牲自己。
在这里免费告诉大家我的研究成果,请各位帮我联系个到什么地方讲学一次的机会。哈佛就算了吧,上次去纽约与《彼岸》的朋友见面,居然让网友认为俺“人不如其照”,大扫俺出去演讲的兴致。 但是牛津说不定会比较感兴趣,有个家伙在那里研究十八世纪英国地下色情文学词汇的演变,或许与俺臭味相投。
先来澄清几个概念:女人、女性、性感、个性、性吸引、男人的性感和感性。
说实在的,就连许多女人都不懂什么是女人,什么女性,什么是女性的性感。 说的偏激一点,有女性器官的女性不都是女人,不都是有女人味的女性。雪宝贝的feminine是女人味,这回答了宝贝的第一个问题。
女人的自由觉醒运动始于二十世纪初,与世界的两大战争同时进行。 大家知道一打起仗,就是女人都要加入的。所以,男人打仗打疯了,就忘记管束女人了,也不管她们守不守妇道了,也没时间管她们到底是穿长裙还是穿三点式,是穿裙子还是穿裤子了。 女人趁机解放了一把。 但是没高兴多久,战争就结束了,问题出来了,男人给杀光了一半,这下可好,没死的男人这下子可以娶两个甚至是三个四个女人了,性饥渴的女人也管不了那么多了,三个就三个吧,四个就四个吧,在苏联实行战时共产主义的同时,大家也把爱情奉献出去共产了。 所以穆斯林世界的一夫多妻制度完全是历史上的战争造成的。大家知道,伊斯兰世界的人口与基督教世界的人口的比例大约是1:5甚至更小。在伊斯兰世界与基督教几百年的战争中,为了制造出更多的战士们去打仗,必须尽一切可能让更多的女人受孕。如果没有这个制度,今天的伊斯兰教可能早就完蛋了。
这是两性关系发展的一段历史。 这些历史有必要经常回顾,了解了历史,才能了解现在和将来。
"Feminine", on its definition in dictionary, is "woman like". But think about it, by born, woman has breast, bust and "woman like" internal body structure, those are feminine by nature. So why people often see a woman without high heel and lip stick covered as less feminine?
还有一些历史,大家也经常忽略。 三寸金莲也好,高跟鞋、眼影口红都是女人创造出来的, 然后大家争相效仿。 不是男人强迫女人这样做、这样穿的。 很多这些原创性道具都是后宫里的美女、妓院里的娼妓用来诱惑男人的。 现代的人都说三寸金莲残酷,但是当年,如果哪个女人是个大脚,那个羞愧比今天街上的娼妓被人逮到还要没脸。所以说, 迷你裙、高跟鞋是虽然是按照男人的性幻想、性偏好和美学观点创作出来的,但是这些东西不是对男性的妥协,相反,这些道具是女人战胜男人的武器,男人一见这些东西,大多马上就会投降,但不排除少数对女人嫉恶如仇的男人,这些少数男人大都有毛病,不是心理的就是生理的。
不知雪宝贝的年龄,但是如果是到了三十而立仍然把女人味与性吸引分开,显然是需要补课了。 女人味是男人的审美也是女人的审美,因为征服了男人的女人同时也获得同性的羡慕和嫉妒。
So, do they mess up feminine and sexual attraction? What's the difference and relationship between them?
Ok, everybody knows and can sense sexual attraction, because it can be purely external. But feminine, mostly are internal characteristic, just like affectionate, soft, tolerant ...one can be strong when she faces a tough situation, mean while, she can be very affectionate when she confronts her beloved one. But it is confusing why people always think mini skirt is more important than a beautiful mind in showing feminine.
你所提到的affectionate, soft, tolerant都是中性词汇,是男女都有的,男人爱上女人不仅会疯狂,而且会意想不到地温柔,富有牺牲精神。 甚至受到虐待的时候,也觉得是挠痒痒一样的亲爱,虽苦犹甜,这就是虐恋的心理症状。
If we have sexual attraction battle everywhere, that will be a tiresome disaster.
我是主张两性互补的,理念上也希望两性和解。 但是只有战争才会珍惜和平,只有在战争中,真实的本性才会显露, 只有在战争中,男性的征服欲望才能得到满足。 战争是必要的。 两性的战争更是必要,没有了对抗,也就没有了分别;没有分别,大家都变成中性人了。
希望宝贝继续问更有挑战性的问题。
- posted on 04/14/2004
Thanks Susan and Maya.
I like the definition of Gender from Susan: Gender: the expectation of a society for men to behave like men and women to behave like women.
As well as Maya’s idea about feminine : 女人味是男人的审美也是女人的审美,因为征服了男人的女人同时也获得同性的羡慕和嫉妒。
About gender, I would like to go further from Susan’s sentence. Now the point is what behavior style is “like men” from society expectation, and what’s “like women”? And is this expectation reasonable?
I think “like men” refer to more ambitious and aggressive, “like woman” refer to more gentle and mild. I mean “more”, not “just”. The reason of this kind of expectation actually comes from survival purpose of human group long long time ago, because men normally take care of hunting and building, meanwhile women take care of children raising and cooking, this expectation is also in line with the chemical and physical different inside our bodies. Nowadays, even women can be excellent architecture, men can be good sewer and chef, our society still follow similar expectation as it was long time ago. This expectation is not bad, and it makes women more “like women” and men more “like men”, and makes the world more like the world. I never disagree with that. But just struggling with the second point, which is about Maya’s feminine saying
男人的审美 and 女人的审美, is often different, so feminine or not is quite depends on from who’s view, because, from men’s point, feminine is always related to sexual attraction, but from women’s point, it is not necessary sex related, that’s why I raise the question. For me, internal mind-set is a more important part than external appearance in feminine judgment, if a man can “feel” a woman’s 女人味, but not only see it, he must be a real men; reverse is the same, if a woman can “feel” a men’s 男人味, she must be a pure woman.
- posted on 04/15/2004
Snowbaby,
The social expectations on gender roles has been evolving through ages. One example come to mind is a story about a U.S. president candidate back in the 50's/60s. His wife was accused of chewing gums in public and when this candidate tried to defend his wife, he was seen having tears in his eyes. These two things pretty much killed his chance of running for the president. Nowadays, it is probably not such a big crime for a woman to chew gums in public and showing affections to ones wife is no longer considered being weak.
I don't think 男人的审美 and 女人的审美 are often different. We as a society often share the same taste. It is possible that be that one sex accepts the tastes of the other dominating sex.
"Feminine" is not exactly the same as "sexy", although you cannot seperate feminine from sexual conscienence. You may feel one perticular look is feminine but not very sexy and vice versa.
The inner beauty and external appearance are not mutually exclusive, so I suggest we that don't need to decide which is more important than the other. Also, the word "important" is subjective, what is important to you as an individual may not be as important to the group of different sex. Most people pursue both spiritual and physical beauty, yet it is easy for the physical beauty to make the first impression, and we would be wasting our energies trying to deny it. I do agree though, that sometimes the media's obsession with sexual attraction go too far.
When we say "real man" or "pure woman", many times we actually mean "ideal man" or "perfect woman". Real human beings are neither perfect nor pure.
- posted on 04/15/2004
俺的咖啡馆里真是有高人啊,susan听起来像个大姐,观点非常平和全面,我是个喜欢从奇怪的角度看问题的。这个话题渐渐走入审美的领域,借此我谈谈我的两性审美观。 男人女人不管有怎样的差异,我欣赏的男人女人必须是美的。 我是个不可救药的唯美主义者。
男性美与女性美有交叉的趋势。 这些年来,我在一群男不男,女不女的圈子里混,对这个问题有些思考。上个世纪,有两个人对女性运动起了不可估量的作用。 一个是Coco Chanel, 另一个你猜是谁? 就是那个制造汽车轮胎的橡胶大王Charles Goodyear。特别提一下Chanel是因为流行趋势常常带动整个社会观念的变革。 Chanel不仅是第一个世界著名的女时装设计师, 而且第一个设计出了时髦的女装裤和女性白领工作服,她还面向平民,使设计的服装普及,在女性走进男人的世界时,不仅保留了办公室服装的女人味,而且定制了女性在工作场所的仪容规范。当年女人穿裤子是大逆不道的。女人参加工作,有了经济实力,才谈得上独立、性解放。Chanel是个非常有贡献的女人。
goodyear呢,大家可能不知道他是第一个生产避孕套的人。 第一批避孕套的诞生大约是1880年左右,真正开始在西方世界流行大约是1935年后,口服避孕药的试验和使用是在1950年后,所以西方60年代的性解放与口服避孕药的诞生密切相关。
当然整个二十世纪的工业革命是真正让女人走出传统角色的主导力量,比如洗衣机的发明等等,让女人摆脱了繁重的家务。
我今天搜集了一些照片,想告诉雪宝贝,faminine的定义是在变化的。 比如有些人认为胡兰成是个娘娘腔吃软饭的人,我却看他很有魅力。 有些霸道的“男人婆”也有不少“护花使者”欣赏。 在中国人眼里,西方的女子没有女人味,她们甚至有胡须、深重的体毛,这些都是很男性的身体特征,但是女画家frida Khalo就很有女人味,她就是一个体毛很重的人,连眉毛都连在一起,她有几幅自画像都是有胡须的,她在20年代就敢穿男装照相,这些装扮都有一种奇异的美,就是我们在咖啡店里谈过的雌雄同体的概念,这是一个很有魅力的审美观点。 而西方女子都认为东方的男性太阴柔了,如果穿上女装,跟女人没有分别。所以男性与女性,也有交叉的地带。 女性有点男性特征,或者男人有点女性的温柔都是很有感染力的。
我喜欢的女人有两种类型,一种就是纯粹的古典美人:洁白、清洁、沉默、隐忍、牺牲, 另一类就是野女人,有男性美的女人。 两样的都喜欢,不同的场合需要不同的女性在身边,我想,男人就更是这样了。
现在的社会对性向越来越宽容,变性手术等等正在改变传统的性别意识。走在时代尖端的人们都在挖掘自己潜在的另一性征,这是好的现象。 女人做久了,也想尝尝当男人的滋味,我想男人也会考虑当几天女人的。
明天我来谈将来的趋势。
Coco chanel, 先锋知识女性的典范
Frida 着男装
anne sexton
- posted on 04/15/2004
老老朋友张索时有篇文章叫《说媚》, 引用窦蒙的《字格》里解释的媚来说feminine的定义。 字格说: 意居于外曰媚。 那到底是居于何处呢?
老张后又引《长恨歌》里的”回眸一笑百媚生,六宫粉黛无颜色“, 把媚的极至盛大夸张了出来。 后又说在《聊斋》里的恒娘一段里,蒲松龄借恒娘之口说出了他对媚的理解:美而不媚不能勾魂,而一媚可夺西施之宠。 恒娘向朱氏传授媚术,这样写道:
半月许复诣恒娘,恒娘阖门与语曰:“从此可以擅专房矣。然子虽美,不媚也。子之姿,一媚可夺西施之宠,况下者乎!”于是试使貌,曰:“非也!病在外眦。” 试使笑,又曰:“非也!病在左颐。”乃以秋波送娇,又冁然瓠犀微露,使朱效之。凡数十作,始略得其仿佛。恒娘曰:“子归矣,揽镜而娴习之,术无余矣。至于床第之间,随机而动之,因所好而投之,此非可以言传者也。”
老张所以得出这样的推论: 媚仅可以相示, 未可以言传, 恒娘知媚之当然,而无法尽述媚之所以然。
老张说,文章亦是如此,美而慧还不是文章之极境, 媚是精心调理下的无限风情,从而荡入只可意会不可言传的销魂境界。 这媚字就是化仙成妖的境界。
与好宝贝share这一段故事,是让宝贝明白媚(女人味,feminine)是一种艺术,既有天然的成分,更有修炼的造化, 各位要潜心修习。 - posted on 05/13/2004
Snowbaby,
Just saw this today. I would say the majority men's 审美 are skin-deeped, if you don't want to change or "lower" yourself, then they are not right for you. Keep looking, you might eventually find the rare one that apprecieate who you are.
Snowbaby wrote:
男人的审美 and 女人的审美, is often different, so feminine or not is quite depends on from who’s view, because, from men’s point, feminine is always related to sexual attraction, but from women’s point, it is not necessary sex related, that’s why I raise the question. For me, internal mind-set is a more important part than external appearance in feminine judgment, if a man can “feel” a woman’s 女人味, but not only see it, he must be a real men; reverse is the same, if a woman can “feel” a men’s 男人味, she must be a pure woman.
- posted on 05/13/2004
yc,
Agree that there is a lot of skin-deeped 审美 around, just give more tolerant to them since it is not their fault. Initial 审美 comes from instinct impulse, no man can avoid that, later on, 审美 is raised to higher mental level, into intelligent 审美, just like the pyramid of basic needs for human being.
So as susan said, physical appearance is still very important for initial 审美 period, then the nerve of 审美 becomes a bit tired of just external thing, start looking for more from internal to fullfill mental need for a soul. At this point, the meaning of feminine becomes rich and thick, if the feminine includes deeper and broader source than outlook, like, life experience, beautiful mind.... - posted on 05/13/2004
Feminine or not, really depends on individual opinion. Some men may never be interested in going deeper than skin, they attract the same type of women. 物以类聚,什么样的男人配什么样的女人. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. In the movie "Somthing is Gotta give", a 30-sth handsome doctor finds a 50+ yo (looks more than 60 to me) woman with wrinkles attractive.
Snowbaby wrote:
yc,
Agree that there is a lot of skin-deeped 审美 around, just give more tolerant to them since it is not their fault. Initial 审美 comes from instinct impulse, no man can avoid that, later on, 审美 is raised to higher mental level, into intelligent 审美, just like the pyramid of basic needs for human being.
So as susan said, physical appearance is still very important for initial 审美 period, then the nerve of 审美 becomes a bit tired of just external thing, start looking for more from internal to fullfill mental need for a soul. At this point, the meaning of feminine becomes rich and thick, if the feminine includes deeper and broader source than outlook, like, life experience, beautiful mind.... - posted on 05/13/2004
Who knows? Maybe at certain stage of life men get so tired of intelligent 审美 that they start to appreciate the skin-deep 审美 once and again. :-)
I still think you are talking about "attraction to the opposite sex", not feminine.
Snowbaby wrote:
yc,
Agree that there is a lot of skin-deeped 审美 around, just give more tolerant to them since it is not their fault. Initial 审美 comes from instinct impulse, no man can avoid that, later on, 审美 is raised to higher mental level, into intelligent 审美, just like the pyramid of basic needs for human being.
So as susan said, physical appearance is still very important for initial 审美 period, then the nerve of 审美 becomes a bit tired of just external thing, start looking for more from internal to fullfill mental need for a soul. At this point, the meaning of feminine becomes rich and thick, if the feminine includes deeper and broader source than outlook, like, life experience, beautiful mind.... - Re: What's feminineposted on 05/13/2004
Another thought: If a woman's intelligence can't "surface" to the skin --- if her intelligence can't reshape and enhance her physical appearance --- then maybe she is not as intelligent as she believes herself to be after all...
"Intelligence" doesn't just hide under the skin, waiting to be discovered. It shines, it radiates, it calls for attention. It separates you from the rest of the crowd. It actually doesn't need too much digging to find out... - Re: What's feminineposted on 05/18/2004
Susan, love what you wrote above. can't agree more with you. - posted on 05/18/2004
智慧是由经验积累起来的。经历得多,又有一个锲而不舍思想的脑袋,才会有智慧。经历过程本身不可能时时闪烁智慧的光芒,有时甚至会显得愚蠢。经历意味着幸福,有时更意味着伤痛,因此拥有智慧的人也不可能总散发迷人的魅力。
智慧并不一定意味着就会带来好处。再懂得多,也只是浩瀚宇宙里一粒尘土上的一个小生物;再懂得多,也只是悠悠千年岁月里重演的故事和体会。虚怀若谷的智慧,也许让人更迷惘。
智慧或许能让人容光焕发,耀眼迷人。但是我更欣赏品德。如果一个人只有智慧,没有品德,他再怎么放电,我也感觉不到。:)
随感而已。扯远了。。。
Another thought: If a woman's intelligence can't "surface" to the skin --- if her intelligence can't reshape and enhance her physical appearance --- then maybe she is not as intelligent as she believes herself to be after all...
"Intelligence" doesn't just hide under the skin, waiting to be discovered. It shines, it radiates, it calls for attention. It separates you from the rest of the crowd. It actually doesn't need too much digging to find out... - Re: What's feminine / 智慧posted on 05/19/2004
所有的智慧都在每个人的心里。只要你去仔细听仔细看,一定会发现的。经历是帮助个人学会自省的一个好方法。思索也可以带来智慧,但思索容易陷入自身而难以自拔。
智慧并不意味着任何什么,只意味着智慧。就算世事完全明了了,也还是要该做什么做什么----做自己的事,走自己的路,完成自己的人生。
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