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[Ҫ] νƽʱŵУڶԡƽȡȵİͶԡȵ£ڡdemosԡμҡpoliticusĽ䱸ݱ壬ŵܵʿ䡶ѧΪʾһֱԵȻμңstatesmanshipĵˡµʷ䡶ޱսʷΪ顱ݣactionʿ¡ʫѧıΪ֤ṹargumentӡ֤ʿµġšó㾯ʾμҵĵˡ
AbstractDuring the well acclaimed golden age of Athenian democracy, the demos, with excessive love for equality and fear for tyrant, was of profound suspicion toward the ambitious politicus, a suspicion that always transformed itself into shameless ingratitude, a suspicion that compelled Aristotle the philosopher to conclude as a dark natural law in his Politica that democracy is the enemy of statesmanship. This paper is intended to serve a dramatic interpretation of Thucydides' The Peloponnesian War in the light of Aristotles theory of tragedy spelt out in his Poetica, with a view to the perpetual lesson Aristotle has drawn for us: democracy is the enemy of statesmanship.
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{4} ʿ£ʫѧ1450b20-1452a20
{5}ͼƪ198a-212c
{6}ء5907-909У61-4
{7} ȽϿ˹ʹڵһ˹ʹϵķжŵ֮мաԸʥǡ11µ15ڡͱйڡˡ͡ǡİʾ
{8} ϣŷȵ˹Euripidesġ¡Heracleidae197202С243246С305307С329332СȽϲġ˵ŵġƷʣeleutheria˵άۡ16¡ۿġʿ¡ѧ1119b221122a17ϵ˹䡶ʢ˥ԭۡ6¾ĵ۹ոͬжϣC tait...une ancienne contume des Romains, d'addcorder toujours leur secours quiconque venait l'implorer
{9} ά˹ǡ6840£Ƚʥ¹˹ϵ۳ǡ1ԡ
{10}ءJames RedfieldNature and Culture in the Iliad: Tragedy of HectorChicago: University of Chicago Press1975Seth BenardeteHomeric HeroesA Commentary on IliadPhD dissertation of Committee on Social ThoughtUniversity of Chicago1955
{11} ͼ588b-608b
{12}ڡꡱ͡ꡱIJͬԡߵijͻԼ壬ʿڡѧ21213ϸۡġ꡷ֵòοȽάۡ25¡ļ42¡ʼ157ڡ
{13} ³ˣ˹
{14} ء612-19С
{15} ɱDzԽŵǣĽ·ɱĽ˹Խǡһ˵ȵµĵһ˵̹ŵ۹ıκµġסԼµβȽ¡ʩ˹Leo StraussġҮ·ŵ䡱Jewish Philosophy and Crisis of ModernityAlbany: State University of New York Press, 1997, pp. 377-405ʥǡ¡סıȽϡ
{16} ƪĹ־ĵʹܶµĶ߾ʺѹΪ˹кͱ³ʹ顣룬¶Դ˻еѽ⣬˹̵ĵԭֻ˵һƽĵһ۹ijfoundingĵصģⲢ˹ŵˡµͼʮ͵ݵġά̹ѧһ˹Hobbes϶Ϊ֪ԴDzġġġְµġޱսʷйӢġ뱾ľߡĻ˹Ȼһɾ˹䡰Ĺ־˹ٶʮ͵ķáſˡ¬RousseauеܲķĪдһС飬ƽȵԴͻDZ˵¬̽Ŀѣ̵ͬ齲һû˹Ĺ£ԴǰģԴǸɾġõġ˹¬Ĺ»ɾ˹ġĹ־һӡά̹ĹɾոɾһѾӵ֪ˣ֪¬ĹǶ塱ʫ¬ޣLucretiusۡչʷĴ۸ģڡۡʫ¬³Epicurusʷ¶ŵߵĩ䡣
{17} ³ˣ״M. L. Westϣ̸밧輯Iambi et elegi GraeciiOxford University Press19711972
{18} ʿ£ѧ1295b20º1284a3¡
{19} ЩνµʫˡҲ˵ЩʫˣٶijʱмijЩǵijǰһЩ⣺İˣǿԾݷǵijǰǵǿԴǵʫһ𣿶飬ôأӦʲôĻشЩ(divine men)ȷأҿӦģ߹ˣ˵ԼҲʫˣѾõĺ߹ı磻κη濴[ǰ]ĴǶ߹õʽģ£Ϊʵı硣[]ʫˣͬҲ[]ʫˣΪ߹ϷߺݳߣǵĶ֣ϣ߹Ϸֻķɲʹ(ͼƪ߾817a-817dThomas PangleӢıChicagoUniversity of Chicago Press1988)
{20} ŵĸԣʷҲȰ(PolybiusԼ200-118 B.C.)оʵŵһ˺ͳɹ֮ں˹пʱﵽ˶塣Ȼ֮ŵ䷴ıԵ߸ˡΪŵ˶һʧȥ˴ĴһҴϣˮdzڶԷ˵Ŀ־ԵطӶֵʱǵΪĽġǣڹţڶ˾Ӻͱ˴˼ʱǾͲһˣЩ˾УЩߴٶêЩҪŷһЩȴҪ䷫·ôϵij˿е裬䱾ΣѾصĻˡԣͨǣ͵ĺ֮ڽĸdzһ־ŵĵΡƾ乫ǵijŵµΣգȻ⡢ȱԣڰͻȻ𡣺͵ױ˹һŵһ壺еƵͳ嶯ǵĸ㹹ִĻϲ±ͼ顣һ㣬Ҳٶ˵ʲôˡȰPolybiusʷƪʮĽڡLoeb Classical Library档
ֹ֥Ӹѧ˼ίԱᲩʿѡˡ֥ӸѧԼʵоġоԱ
α༭
=====
http://www.opentimes.cn/to/200402/2004-73-02.htm
һϣ˥ʷݣʷ̫ϲ
Եı⡣
ޱսʷ¬Ľ̵˰˹зҵ
һЩϷһʷֵ⡣
- Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 09/18/2005
̫Щ̫дˣðǰ漸䣬ԡ:) - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 09/18/2005
ˡȻμҵĵˣdzʶ൱ڷϻؼǣμпǹҺĵˡʵԾֶֹ
ÿ£ҾͰܵ裬ȥѧڡѧָһ¡ - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 09/18/2005
ʷͻᷢĹţֻDZ̫ڡ
xw wrote:
һϣ˥ʷݣʷ̫ϲ
Եı⡣
ޱսʷ¬Ľ̵˰˹зҵ
һЩϷһʷֵ⡣
- Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 09/19/2005
۹IJԴڶЧϣϵһ֧ԭڳ - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 11/16/2005
This guy is a ʵооԱ in the U.S. and he made this conclusion? This just hit too close to home, too scary.... - posted on 11/16/2005
ŵĴкܴһԭDzΪսũ˿ȫ
ӵڣΪȻߡ
Զ˹п֮ŵ۹eros߱ʧܸաԶŵ꽫ȵ£Alcibiades˹пʽ츳ʺΪո˵ԶǰϦȵһͨƻոŮ֪Ҷ֮ĹڰĹ¡{5}֮ȵ³̤Զ·
ͼġƪֵһĽDZһҹո
ĴȵУʹͷһҹûаоͷ·Ǻ
ֵ˯һҹ!һλɣô
ƪDzޱսʷõܽᣬֵһٶ
¬˵:'ʷⱾãϧôõıд
ɱ˵Ϸˡ'¬Ƿսģ
ȻҸϲ£治Ϊʷѧ֮ͬй˾
Ǩǿӡ
ллְˡ - posted on 11/16/2005
G.W. Bush will be touched into tears if he read this... :-)
xw wrote:
۹
ԶڹʧһжϵĹʧ䵱ǿǵҪԸŵ˵ĵˡԶϵʧŵûи躣ľʵ֧֣æڸ˵ıͼöڵ쵼ȨԶʧŵڵIJ͵¹ҡջԼԶŵĵ۹ҳ150151
Yeah, Deng Xiao-Ping's daughter said the same thing after 6.4. She said Chinese people are .
Ҫ] νƽʱŵУڶԡƽȡȵİͶԡȵ£ڡdemosԡμҡpoliticusĽ䱸ݱ壬 - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 11/16/2005
this is talking about the real history, real politics, not
SOHO cafe.
little B would be crying with Jesus' mercy, what's that help ?
and...I don't read essay in this way.
- posted on 11/16/2005
xw wrote:
this is talking about the real history, real politics, not
SOHO cafe.
Just tell me when I wasn't talking about real history, real politics.
little B would be crying with Jesus' mercy, what's that help ?Don't know what this means.
and...I don't read essay in this way.
Which way? Making connection between historical event and current event?
But anyhoo, I am pro-war now. I've been converted. :-)
- posted on 11/16/2005
Susan wrote:
xw wrote:Just tell me when I wasn't talking about real history, real politics.
this is talking about the real history, real politics, not
SOHO cafe.
little B will not have time to read this little piece, especially
while it is in Chinese.
and... deng's daughters, which daughter?
little B would be crying with Jesus' mercy, what's that help ?Don't know what this means.
little Bush would be crying with Jesue's mercy, does that help ?
and...I don't read essay in this way.Which way? Making connection between historical event and current event?
quote part of the text and draw conclusion...Plato and Aristotle's
political ideals are both anti-democracy, why people respect them
all the way through the history ?
To me, they are quite candide on expressing, they're great philosophers.
But anyhoo, I am pro-war now. I've been converted. :-)
why converted, I treat this as history.
I will stay anti-war all my life, but I should know the real
history.
Sorry for my poor English expression!
- posted on 11/17/2005
I don't think what I've quoted was out of context. Actually I think this essay is all quotes and no original ideas: the conclusion he made was stolen from Thucydides and Aristotle. The question is: if, after 2000 years, the human natures have never changed, at least the concept of democracy and the ideas of government have evolved. Where is the wisdom we've gained during the past 2000 years? Can you develop your own independent mind, modern man? We respect Plato and Aristotle but we don't implement their ideal of Republic, why?
I always believe the reason we need to know history is that it is the prophecy of the future. I don't think it is a good idea to turn blind eyes to the history that is unfolding in front of us while learning our past. If that is someone would like to do, I don't care, but this guy is a professional for crying out loud. I will give him the benefit of doubt and trust him not to have any political agendas, yet learning ancient history without an independent, progressive mind is unapplausible at best and dangerous at worst.
- posted on 11/17/2005
share your point about this essay's conclusion, I had mentioned
at the very beginning, I don't like the title.
But I like the quoted contents, as if I am still reading Thucydides. As it mentioned in reference 16:
µͼʮ͵ݵġά̹ѧһ˹Hobbes϶Ϊ֪ԴDzġġġְµġޱսʷйӢġ뱾ľߡĻ˹Ȼһɾ˹䡰Ĺ־˹ٶʮ͵ķáſˡ¬RousseauеܲķĪдһС飬ƽȵԴͻDZ˵¬̽Ŀѣ̵ͬ齲һû˹Ĺ£ԴǰģԴǸɾġõġ˹¬Ĺ»ɾ˹ġĹ־һӡά̹ĹɾոɾһѾӵ֪ˣ֪¬ĹǶ塱ʫ¬ޣLucretiusۡչʷĴ۸ģڡۡʫ¬³Epicurusʷ¶ŵߵĩ䡣
even Hobbs and Rousseau had done some impolite acts...
But I like Thucydides' honest voice, and more, Herodotus.
Susan wrote:
I don't think what I've quoted was out of context. Actually I think this essay is all quotes and no original ideas: the conclusion he made was stolen from Thucydides and Aristotles. The question is: if, after 2000 years, the human natures have never changed, at least the concept of democracy and the ideas of government have evolved. Where is the wisdom we've gained during the past 2000 years? Can you develop your own independent mind, modern man? We repect Plato and Aristotles but we don't implement their ideal of Republic, why?
I always believe the reason we need to know history is that it is the prophecy of the future. I don't think it is a good idea to turn blind eyes to the history that is unfolding in front of us while learning our past. If that is someone would like to do, I don't care, but this guy is a professional for crying out loud. I will give him the benefit of doubt and trust him not to have any political agendas, yet learning ancient history without an independent, progressive mind is unapplausible at best and dangous at worst.
I have no any purpose to ZT this essay, and I hope Mr.Lin is also independent here. His title and conclusion is not in my taste.
His way of quoting with serious comments is still in my appreciation.
I am a simple man who likes the greek culture & history.
thanks for the discussion. - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 11/17/2005
ƪµļֵתʷʵأ߱۵ҺܻɣȻԼԣҲɡ¥仰˵ûЩ
This article indeed has the vulnerability to be criticized (as by Susan already). - posted on 11/17/2005
ϲٶһƪɷdzã֯ṹעͶá
ݵļҶȣɿΪʷۣбׯϣ
ջǰ˵ıͽ۵Ļ(ʸ˵:-)
˳ٳ£תһƪ۾Ϊϰޱģ
ٳϰ
Thucydides's account of his native Athens' eventual defeat by Sparta
after a generation of struggle is a msterpiece of institutional and
psychological.
1.It is difficult to single out a central or final message of this
masterpiece of history writing. Thucydides clearly believed that
human behavior was complex and hard to predict, but the systematic
analysis of past events seemed to him the most fascinating exercise
of human reason, possibly of use to the more prudent conduct of
political affairs in the future. He seems to avoid a formal theory
of history.
2.One of the most strikingly dramatic moments in The Peloponnesian
War is Thucydides's account of a debate between the officers of an Athenian invasion force and the leading citizens of the oligarchic
polis of Melos, a small and strtegically insignificant island in the
Aegean, in the sixteenth year of the war. Militarily, this event was
minor, but it exemplified for the author much of Athenian behavior
and serves as a prime example of Sophistic political reasoning.
3.The basic conflict in the dialogue is that between the Melian
leaders' appeal to justice, honor, and the tradition of liberty their
polis had guarded for seven centuries and the Athenian representatives'
argument that Athens could not afford to leave Melos out of their maritime empire. A neutral Melos would be proof of Athenian weakness
and a source of danger to the empire, because it is a law of nature that power must expand to its limits or start retracting.
4.Neither side persuades the other, as reported by Thucydides. The
Athenians isolate the town of Melos with a land wall and blockade the
port; eventually Melos surrenders, all the men of military age are
killed, and all the women and children sold into slavery.
ޱöġлλۣ
- Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 11/18/2005
He he, I can see adagio has . ;-)
adagio wrote:
ƪµļֵתʷʵأ߱۵ҺܻɣȻԼԣҲɡ¥仰˵ûЩ
This article indeed has the vulnerability to be criticized (as by Susan already). - posted on 11/19/2005
˵ʷѧ߷ֱѧҺ;ѧңôȵµĹ£ΪԾѧҵŷְǰпʫԽݣԼΪ˹ϣijλʵ϶Եʱսһ转
ڲҪʫ˽ĵطǡǡdzǰʱһº½ؾµĽҲdz;óķ֮أ˵սó״ٽκĻǷЩйѧȫߵѧʣ֣ΪʲôǶкܺõʲźͺܺõĻȴһҪѧС㣬»ڣղǸѧѧһƯͣȴκκʵԵİ
һȺѧ˹˹ѧŶɶĺͿ - Re: 海洋帝国的民主悲剧(林国华)posted on 11/19/2005
ֹһ,СʫʷVֻòʱƬӡȴãȻΡʷDZȽϼӲѧƣЩȴʫǣջδȡ
ֹĵֹܵҪЩʮ㣬ŵ㣬Ҳͳȱ㡣õѧҪлһ飬ʯͷһ־Ҫͬ侲
˵ֵѧҲӦ̳ʲŲ̸ڷ˲ò - posted on 11/19/2005
꣨צԦ֦ǡpsycheڹϣʹ˫صĺ壺һǴϣĺĶһָԴָ˵ĸоСǵʶϣѧоǵڶϵꡣ[xiii]
ϣܹŰӰ죬Ű˼Ҳ˹ϣڡʷе˵ŰΪֻأ½صޡˮеͿеķҪǧͶΪˡϣݶ˹̷չ˼γˡֻ˵¶˹Ϊ˫ʣꡣģģ걻˵֮УǶԴڹΥΪijͷļĹͨܳʹصԭĶȥ⡰ܳݾ˰¶˹̵Ľ塣
ϣڽ̺˼ԺڽѧشӰ죬һѧϵ˼Ļ̩˹Ϊһ˶ʿڡ꡷мУ
̩˹ļжϣƺΪһ˶˵ʯ꣬Ϊƶ[xiv]
̩˹Ϊ꣬ûʯҲ꣬ΪﶼꡣǿᣬΪıԭҲ̩˹ǿ˼붼۵ģһڽ̡IJࡣ
̩ѧܰ¶˹ֻ˵Ӱ죬ͬγ겻ࡢֻص˼롣̩ѧʱܳǰʱڹ˼ҲͬѧеΪеģеΪǿеijҲеΪһֺгг̩ѧΪһϸ̹ڽҪ겻ֻѧ˵ġ
ں˿ǸĻȵĺҲ˵ıԭֻĻࡢǻ۵ġ
ǿƺǼȽֽŬ˹ġʿڡ꡷̸
ǿ˵ʱDZȽģڶطǣԭŬ˹ĵط˵ꡣ˵[]һжĺСġĺ͵ͼġУŬ˹ͬһжһˡ[xv]
ǿƺǰ˵ʹáꡱģ꿴ϣĵڶơֻڰǿ֮ЩŬ˹ģŬ˹֧һоĶκﶼеģеﶼŬ˹Ŭ˹Ϊһʵ壬ǵĴģ֪ƶ˶ԼγɵǡԵ̩˹ǿԼضԵģǿŬ˹ͬʵ塣ɼǿŬ˹ĸĻγɵģŬ˹չĸоСʶʶĺγ˾иǡǻʵ塣
ǿǰĹϣѧҵ˵ڽ̡ɫʡ̩˹ѧոմڽ̩߳ѧɱͬ¶˹Ƶڽ塣ǿŬ˹֧˶ģŬ˹ҡŬ˹һ־иǵʵ壬ǿЩڽ̡ɫʶ˵ѧԾ
- Re: 灵与肉的抗争!posted on 11/20/2005
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