按说这个问题不应由我这个女人来提出,但正因为我是个女人,才会在有闲的时候去泡又长又生活化又无聊的南韩电视剧,才会在看电视剧的过程中发现一个不被人注意的细节。
那天,在泡一盘接一盘的南韩电视剧《看了又看》时,我突然发现南韩的五六年级的小男孩都要去行割礼,而且这已经成为韩国人生活中一个必不可少的环节。
这个细节吓了我一大跳,我一向以为割礼这古老的习俗只是信犹太教和伊斯兰教的人去行的。记得纳粹当年实行种族灭绝时用来识别犹太人的其中一个方 法就是检查男人是否行过割礼。割礼,似乎和一直受儒家思想和佛教影响的韩国人是风马牛不相及的。
韩国男孩为什么要行割礼?这习俗源于哪里?历史有多长?种种问题引起了我的好奇。
网络很快就回答了我的疑问,韩国不仅只在现在给男孩们实行割礼,估计已经有一千四百万的男性实行过割礼。韩国总人口大约四千七百万,假设男女比 例为1:1,男性人口应该是二千三百五十万,那么男性行割礼的比例超过了50%。这实在是让人吃惊的数字。
割礼的习俗是近50内才在韩国悄然兴起的。在韩国与美国1945-48年建立信任伙伴关系前几乎没有人知道这个习俗。后来美国卷入朝鲜战争,受 美国文化影响,韩国行割礼的人数在60年代大量增加,报纸也开始大量宣传鼓动这个习俗。从那时到现在,割礼在韩国成为了普遍现象,这个现象几乎是一 个毫无历史根基的现象,在短时间内影响如此巨大,不能不说是美国文化对韩国文化的一个颠覆。
纵观韩国历史(资料来源于韩国驻中国大使馆的官方中文网站),它主要分下面几个历史时期:
1.史前时代:经人类学研究发现, 在70万年前, 韩半岛就有人类居住。
2.古朝鲜(Chuson, means 'Land of Morning Calm)( B.C. 2333~B.C. 108): 据传, 神话人物檀君(Tan-gun)于公元前2333年建立了韩国第一个王国- 古朝鲜。 此后, 几个部族由满州南部地区移到韩半岛。
3.三国时代( B.C. 57~A.D. 676): 高句丽(, 百济, 新罗建于一世纪。这期间古代国家的政治体系, 宗教(佛教和儒教) 文化得到发展。
4.统一新罗时代(the North-South Unified Shila)(A.D. 676~A.D. 935): 新罗的统一促进了文化的发展, 佛教也在这一时期得到了最大的普及。 统一新罗因贵族的霸权争斗而衰退, 935年归属高丽。
5.高丽王朝(the Koryo dynasty)(A.D. 918~1392): 高丽建于918年。佛教在这一时期被定为国教, 给政治和文化带来巨大的影响。著名文物有高丽青瓷和《高丽大藏经》。 高丽时代发明了直指。直指是世界历史上最早出现的金属活字本,比古腾堡发明的金属活字本早了78年。14世纪中期后,高丽衰退。
6.朝鲜王朝(In the Yi or Chosun dynasty)(1392~1910): 朝鲜王朝建于14世纪末, 儒教成为国教, 对全社会产生了很大的影响。 1443年发明了韩文字母。由于日本的侵略(1592年, 任辰倭乱)和外国势力的侵略使朝鲜开始走向衰退。
7.日本统治时期(1910~1945): 1876年朝鲜王朝被日本强迫打开了门户。 1910年日本占领韩国, 直到1945年第二次世界大战时, 日本被联军打败投降。
8.大韩民国(1945~至今): 1945年日本被联军投降后撤离韩国。其后韩半岛分为韩国与北韩。 韩国战争于1950年6月25日爆发, 1953年6月27日签定停战协定。 2000年历史性的南北韩首脑会谈在北韩的首都平壤召开。
从1945年至今,也不过63年。63年,一个影响一个民族的风俗竟然得以形成,那么,到底是什么让这个耿直刚毅的民族做成这个决定的呢?
一个重要的理由就是韩国人认为只有这样做了才能成为更好的基督徒,再更深层的理由则是伟大的美国人都是基督徒,所以成为一名基督徒并做割礼是一件非常重要的事。可是,基督徒并不要求男性都去做割礼。但圣经上说,耶稣是行过割礼的。
我忍不住又去查了一下美国行割礼的情况,根据一份统计报告资料,从1900年到2000年间,美国男性行割礼的比例从18%上升到70%,而男性婴儿一出生就行割礼手术的比例曾经在1965年至1980年达到80%,然后有逐年下降的趋势。
不管怎么追随美国,反正韩国人现在已经把割礼看作是男孩成年的一个重要仪式。这是我在查阅这些资料之前万万没有想到的。
我的确非常好奇,这深受儒家思想影响的民族能做这么快的改变,而且改变得如此彻底,比美国人有过之而无不及。这让我想起了不久前发生的南韩人质事件,他们的宗教狂热让我不可想象。我以为宗教的影响不可能如此之深。
伴随而来的还有一个问题,同样深受美国文化影响的日本,为什么没有这样的普遍现象?!
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
民姐来啦。
不晓得割礼对男性性兴奋程度有没有什么影响?
这个哪位做过研究?想了解一下。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
哈,你的辨认能力挺强的,一下就知道是我。
据澳洲研究报告,有害无利,不过我可不想往深层探讨。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
SZM wrote:
据澳洲研究报告,有害无利,不过我可不想往深层探讨。
没事儿,一会儿老瓦他们就来了,有人会往深层探讨的。不过老瓦是假正经。:)
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
好像前不久看到什么资料,说割包皮不好。 如果不是特别长,以保留为好。一个理由就是可以保持对性刺激的敏感。 - posted on 02/05/2008
老方说的有天然道理。但人类文明好象是朝另一个方向的,最先割割
皮以成就与上帝的契约?(估计也不是,最先还是从卫生角度说事情)
,割来割去,就割出文化趣味来了,割来割去,文化也朝着割的趣味
上去了。。。
fanghuzhai wrote:
好像前不久看到什么资料,说割包皮不好。 如果不是特别长,以保留为好。一个理由就是可以保持对性刺激的敏感。
这两天咖啡里韩国(朝鲜)话题很热门,恐怕源于浮生。(浮生是不
是有韩国血统啊?),我想起一桩韩国的话题:
话说中国明朝,韩国年年都要进贡几十位美女。以后韩国女都不美了
,现在还怪中国呢。可是中国民间的美女也一样进贡朝廷啊?美女不
美女,一进了宫就不美了,一出了宫就美,象王昭君。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
讲个有关割礼的笑话。
纽约的某犹太拉比在百老汇的公共厕所小便。进来一个犹太少年在他左边小便。拉比问他,你们布郎区的拉比金伯格还在主持割礼啊?少年很吃惊,说,你怎么知道我是布郎区来的?拉比说,因为你把小便都撒到我脚上了。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
我来试解一下:
1)割礼强化性福生活;
2)假定基督教是个原因的话,这是一石双鸟。精神肉体相互扶持。至于为什么韩国选择基督教,我以为岛民缺乏本土文化支柱,在与强邻抗衡中,自然远采近斥。 - posted on 02/05/2008
这韩国割礼是美国影响估计没错,是否和基督教有关我很怀疑。当初基督教要convert非犹太人,其中一样就是放弃割礼的前提,古希腊人很怕这个。美国人割礼好像是政府的medical advice,咖啡诸位若是早来个四五十年,估计儿子们也得割:)
xw wrote:
这两天咖啡里韩国(朝鲜)话题很热门,恐怕源于浮生。(浮生是不
是有韩国血统啊?),我想起一桩韩国的话题:
话说中国明朝,韩国年年都要进贡几十位美女。以后韩国女都不美了
,现在还怪中国呢。
切,怀疑我韩国血统都不等我答就说韩国女都不美,啥意思呀:)
我有啥血统我自己也不知道,户口本上是汉族,可是啥是汉族呢?要是真追起来估计就是大杂烩,且一定少不了北方草原上的血,也说不定真有朝鲜血呢。 - posted on 02/05/2008
高,xw真能搞笑,原来韩国美女是这样流失的,想必越南美女也一样,哦,难怪日本美女素质高,她们从来没有向天子进过贡哈。
最初实施割礼的古埃及人,都是在成年以后,主要因为卫生考虑吧。但犹太人把仪式提前到了婴儿阶段,目的是给种族打上一个印记,完全不是当事人的志愿。而韩国选择了小学五六年级,与小和尚出家年龄相仿,是否有一点把宗教与净身联系起来的意味,当然只是半净。
日本的基督教远没有韩国那么狂热,物质文明最最西化的日本,骨子里面保存了最东方的精髓。xw说韩国是亚细亚的孤儿,可谓一针见血。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
qinggang wrote:
没事儿,一会儿老瓦他们就来了,有人会往深层探讨的。不过老瓦是假正经。:)
有一种说法是割礼后的敏感度减小,就一定程度上导致了肛交的出现——青冈,鉴于我是伪道学的总代理,这个考据任务就留给你了,你论文写出来后保证不删贴,只要学术思想浓厚:))
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/05/2008
感谢各位大侠的回复与讨论!受益非浅!
我算是咖啡馆的资深潜水员了,基本上各位大侠的贴子与争论我都读了,有几位大侠的文字我还转贴过,连阿姗的百名咖啡人投票活动我也参与过。总的来说,我感觉咖啡馆里有太多咖啡客高深莫测,所以从来不敢发言。今天正好借机向大家问好!并祝大家新春愉快!鼠年吉祥! - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/06/2008
touche wrote:
我来试解一下:
1)割礼强化性福生活;
touche ,能否解释一二? - posted on 02/06/2008
老瓦 wrote:
有一种说法是割礼后的敏感度减小,就一定程度上导致了肛交的出现
这理论根本都站不住脚。没有割礼的民族,比如中国,早都有。红楼,金瓶梅,都有描写。这种性交方式跟割礼无关。
——青冈,鉴于我是伪道学的总代理,这个考据任务就留给你了,你论文写出来后保证不删贴,只要学术思想浓厚:))
我可以写的,我家里的资料足够支撑我码2-5千字,怕你们不敢看。
再说了,写了也不贴这里了,咖啡现在是右派压倒左派,西风压倒东风。:))) - posted on 02/06/2008
Circumcision and disease
HIV-AIDS
The latest argument for circumcising normal male infants is that, even if all the other reasons for circumcision have proven to be rubbish, at least it will protect them from the AIDS virus. The claim is wrong because circumcision does not give immunity, or even meaningful protection, against HIV infection. It is also irrelevant because, even if it did, infants and boys are not at risk because they do not have sex with carriers of the virus. The main risk factor for HIV is unprotected sex with numerous partners; if the foreskin is a factor at all, it is a very minor one, and it is no more to blame than the mucosal surfaces of the female genitals.
Urinary Tract Infections (UTIs)
This is a major selling point of circumcision advocates today, but the main reason babies get urinary tract infections (usually caused when intestinal bacteria from their mother colonise the inner surface of the foreskin and then spread up the urethra) is not because of the foreskin. The most important cause is when new-born babies are taken away from their mothers in modern hospitals before they have a chance to receive their mother's antibodies, and thus natural resistance, to the maternal bacteria. The best solution is simply to make sure that a newborn baby stays with his mother and starts to breast feed ASAP; mother's milk will supply the necessary antibodies and thus protect the urinary tract. (There is nothing wrong with intestinal bacteria on the inner foreskin surface; in fact, they probably keep out harmful bacteria.)
Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs)
Anybody can get these if they engage in risky sexual behaviour; nobody need get them if they play it safe. The foreskin is only an innocent bystander.
The United States journal Pediatrics has for many years been a safe haven for the pro-circumcision forces within the American Association of Pediatrics (whose generally anti-circumcision policy the journal has consistently sought to undermine). Recently it published an article by David Fergusson et al purporting to show that circumcision reduced the risk of certain STIs (Chlamydia, genital warts, nonspecific urethritis (NSU), gonorrhea and genital herpes, but not syphilis, genital ulcerative disease or HIV) by up to 50 per cent, and suggesting that neonatal circumcision was thus a wise measure of public policy. Following a number of critical responses posted on the on-line edition of Pediatrics website, Fergusson was forced to retract his claims. One wonders, however, whether the news service which picked up his breathless media release will also report the backdown, and whether Pediatrics will publish the responses in its print edition and formally withdraw the original article.
Circumcision increases risk of prostate problems
Recent papers by Dr G.G. Giles et al show that circumcised men experience more prostate problems, and that prostate cancer is not related to STDs.
Prevalence of urinary symptoms in urban Australian men aged 40-69. McCredie M; Staples M; Johnson W; English DR; Giles GG. Department of Preventive and Social Medicine, Dunedin Medical School, University of Otago, New Zealand. J Epidemiol Biostat 2001;6(2):211-8
BACKGROUND: This study was devised to determine the prevalence of urinary symptoms among men living in the Australian cities of Melbourne, Sydney or Perth, and to identify factors associated with the presence of moderate-to-severe urinary symptoms.
METHODS: The study comprised a population-based sample of 1,216 men, aged 40-69 years, whose names were obtained through electoral rolls and who participated as controls in a case-control study of risk factors for prostate cancer. As part of a structured face-to-face interview, the men completed the International Prostate Symptom Score (IPSS). Men with moderate (IPSS = 8-19) or severe (IPSS > or = 20) urinary symptoms were compared with those with mild or no symptoms (IPSS < 8) using unconditional logistic regression.
RESULTS: The age-specific prevalence of moderate-to-severe urinary symptoms (IPSS > or = 8) in men aged 40-49, 50-59, 60-69 years was 16%, 23% and 28%, respectively. Compared with men with no or mild urinary symptoms (IPSS < 8), men with moderate-to-severe symptoms were more likely to report not currently living as married [odds ratio (OR) = 1.5; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.1-2.0] and being circumcised (OR = 1.5; 95% Cl 1.2-2.0). The increased likelihood associated with drinking an average of > 60g per day of alcohol in the 2 years before interview was of marginal statistical significance (OR = 1.6; 1.0-2.6). There were no significant differences between men with IPSS > or = 8 and those with IPSS < 8 with respect to body mass index, education level, having had a vasectomy, or cigarette smoking.
CONCLUSION: Among Australian men, being circumcised, or not currently living as married, were associated with increased prevalence of urinary symptoms.
Comments
There was no media coverage of this paper, but you can be sure that if the study had, on the contrary, shown that being circumcised was associated with reduced prevalence of urinary symptoms, there would have been newspaper headlines, and the circumfanatics would have been crowing about yet another reason to circumcise baby boys.
Most Doctors Say "Don't do it!"
New policy statement by Australian and New Zealand doctors rejects circumcision
The new policy statement on routine male circumcision issued by the Paediatric and Child Health Division of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians should be welcomed by all those concerned with the welfare and happiness of Australian and New Zealand boys. Although it does not go as far as it could towards discouraging this unnecessary and harmful surgery, it has many positive features. Its message is clearly that boys should be left as nature made them.
The new statement is one of the most authoritative policies on circumcision ever issued by a medical organisation. It has been endorsed by six Australian and New Zealand medical bodies. After a thorough review of the medical literature, including recent claims about the supposed protective effect of circumcision against STDs, AIDS, penile cancer, urinary tract infections and cervical cancer in female partners, the working party concluded that there was "no medical indication for routine male circumcision" and that there was "no evidence of benefit outweighing harm for circumcision as a routine procedure".
- posted on 02/06/2008
我很喜欢澳大利亚对于割礼的官方说法:
1。至今为止,世界上没有一家医学机构推荐对男性应该实行割礼,世界上只有20%的男性实行了割礼。
2。在实行割礼的国家的妇女们有时说喜欢一个行过割礼的伴侣,那是因为他们的风俗使然。同时也有很多妇女报告说同没有实行过割礼的男子的感觉更好。也许一出生就施行过割礼的男子没有什么感觉,但是很多成人才实行割礼的男子抱怨说失去了很多感觉。
3。割礼并不能防止通常所说的那些疾病。
4。从澳洲的调查结果发现 CIRCUMCISED MEN HAD SHORTER ERECT PENISES THAN INTACT MEN,不同是显著的。
5。只有本人才有权利决定是否行割礼,父母没有权利给新生儿决定做这个手术。割礼虽然只是个表皮的手术,但是身体却是他个人的。事实上,很多成年男子并不高兴他们的父母在婴儿或是儿童时期给他们施行了这个手术。
6。割礼还是有一定的危险性,这从死亡个案中可以了解到。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/06/2008
Its message is clearly that boys should be left as nature made them.
我就是这么想的。:)))
至于说防病什么的,我觉得都扯淡。
民姐是关心孩子才考虑到这个问题的吧。
切割对性生活的影响恐怕只有做过的人有发言权,咖啡里有人做过没有?
上学的时候我想做了,当时脸小,不太好意思,就没去。
我一个朋友做过,但这事儿我不好意思问啊。有人现身说法最好。
- posted on 02/06/2008
SZM wrote:
我很喜欢澳大利亚对于割礼的官方说法:
1。至今为止,世界上没有一家医学机构推荐对男性应该实行割礼,世界上只有20%的男性实行了割礼。
2。在实行割礼的国家的妇女们有时说喜欢一个行过割礼的伴侣,那是因为他们的风俗使然。同时也有很多妇女报告说同没有实行过割礼的男子的感觉更好。也许一出生就施行过割礼的男子没有什么感觉,但是很多成人才实行割礼的男子抱怨说失去了很多感觉。
3。割礼并不能防止通常所说的那些疾病。
4。从澳洲的调查结果发现 CIRCUMCISED MEN HAD SHORTER ERECT PENISES THAN INTACT MEN,不同是显著的。
5。只有本人才有权利决定是否行割礼,父母没有权利给新生儿决定做这个手术。割礼虽然只是个表皮的手术,但是身体却是他个人的。事实上,很多成年男子并不高兴他们的父母在婴儿或是儿童时期给他们施行了这个手术。
6。割礼还是有一定的危险性,这从死亡个案中可以了解到。
我的讨论就到此为止了。练习了一下怎么使用QUOTE。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/06/2008
SZM wrote:
4。从澳洲的调查结果发现 CIRCUMCISED MEN HAD SHORTER ERECT PENISES THAN INTACT MEN,不同是显著的。
看来这也是调查后的结论。
天啊,多亏我当时没做。哈哈哈,捡着了,医生没挣着我的钱。 - posted on 02/06/2008
我以为是常识可以回避的呢。割礼在以前卫生条件差的情况下是一个有益的措施。现在作为对男性脱敏的措施也还是有好处的。男人在床上太敏感,好戏没开场就闭幕,这会使女人发疯做各种各样奇怪的事比如写诗。;)
你去看看拍成人片的“淫星”们有几个是没割过的?没割过的就只能拍《色,戒》中的假戏,并且是背影了。
这个不是抽象知识。I was informed of this by someone who once had a Korean boyfriend。韩国人大男子主义厉害,下面不疲软是个必要条件。
我希望我是婴儿时父母给我做了处理。生命虽短,某些锻炼还是值得持久的。有人成人还去行割礼,虽然疼痛在先,but it paid off。;)
qinggang wrote:
touche wrote:touche ,能否解释一二?
我来试解一下:
1)割礼强化性福生活; - posted on 02/08/2008
SAfrica Questions Circumcision Advice
CAPE TOWN, South Africa (AP) - South Africa's health minister took another controversial foray into the AIDS debate Thursday by questioning international medical studies that say circumcision helps reduce HIV infections in men.
Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, who frequently clashes with foreign experts on how to deal with this nation's world-worst AIDS epidemic, said there wasn't "enough information" to justify the government running roughshod over some local communities whose traditions frown on circumcision.
Her comments were the latest in a string of positions that have earned Tshabalala-Msimang sharp criticism from AIDS activists, leading one expert to say the statement showed she is "addicted to folly."
Tshabalala-Msimang voiced doubts about the circumcision studies on the sidelines of a meeting of South African traditional leaders. Many of those leaders portrayed the advice on circumcision as a Western attempt to force foreign values and solutions on Africans.
South Africa has an estimated 5.4 million people infected with the AIDS virus - the most of any nation.
The United Nations says there is compelling evidence circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting the AIDS virus by up to 60 percent. The World Health Organization and UNAIDS last March endorsed male circumcision as an "additional important intervention."
The advice was issued following three extensive trials in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda that showed circumcision dramatically reduced men's susceptibility to HIV infection because the cells in the foreskin of the penis are especially vulnerable to the virus.
One study projected that in the next decade, male circumcision could prevent 2 million AIDS infections and 300,000 deaths.
Tshabalala-Msimang said she was not convinced, noting South Africa's Xhosa ethnic communities suffer high AIDS infection rates even though nearly all Xhosa men are circumcised. However, the infection rate is even higher for Zulus, for whom circumcision is taboo.
The health minister also said male circumcision offers no protection for women, who bear the brunt of the AIDS infections in sub-Saharan Africa.
"I can't say to people they must get circumcised when the process (of research) is ongoing," she said. "I can't go and say things to people which I can't guarantee."
Stephen Lewis, the former U.N. AIDS envoy for Africa and a strong critic of Tshabalala-Msimang, said the comments were typical of an official who has espoused garlic and lemon as a remedy for AIDS and openly mistrusts anti-retroviral medicines used to treat infections.
"She remains a minister who is addicted to folly," Lewis said in an interview from Canada. "There is overwhelming scientific evidence that male circumcision is one of the important ways of preventing transmission of the virus. This is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt."
Rwanda, Uganda, Zambia and Swaziland are among the African countries incorporating male circumcision as part of government AIDS prevention strategies. The United States and big donors like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation have said they are willing to fund such programs.
Swaziland, where an estimated one-third of the population is infected, has set up a circumcision task force even though Swazi culture is similar to that of Zulus, who fear circumcision will undermine their warrior traditions.
Twelve Swazi doctors, a tenth of the country's total, are being trained to perform the operation. The country's rate of circumcisions has increased from a couple a week to more than 10 a day, said Inon Schenker, head of an Israeli training mission in Swaziland.
"I meet almost everyone who comes into the operating room," Schenker said in a telephone interview. "I ask them, `Why did you come?' and 90-plus percent say, `This is going to allow us to be healthy.'"
He said every Swazi man who undergoes circumcision is counseled that the medical procedure alone does not offer complete protection against the AIDS virus and continued condom use is essential. They are also told they must wait until the wound heals before having sex.
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
才看到这条线,青冈和秃邪真是性趣盎然啊。祝新年性福。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
才看到这条线,热烈欢迎山民!
秃邪的性科普文字笑得我差点找不到下巴,太恶毒了,笨笨和梦冉给他寄个bomb mail。:)))
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
不好意思,本来不想提的。文明文明就在于有些东西假装看得见,有些东西假装看不见。只是说割礼不提性趣就像说美国中东政策不提石油一样。
我是个先苦后乐甚至无乐,先天下之忧而忧后天下之乐而乐的人。组织上千万不要搞错。
July wrote:
才看到这条线,青冈和秃邪真是性趣盎然啊。祝新年性福。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
在文化进步意义上,割礼同裹足正好相反。一个是生来的约束也要去掉;一个是自然的天性也要加以约束。一加一减,肉体对精神的作用就显示出来了。
中国近二十年来国力渐增,国人眼界大开,估计同割双眼皮流行有很大关系。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
touche wrote:
好戏没开场就闭幕,这会使女人发疯做各种各样奇怪的事比如写诗。;)
这个假说比较有趣。大概可以用来解释为什么盎格鲁人的女诗人比犹太人的要多。 - posted on 02/08/2008
八十一子 wrote:
touche wrote:这个假说比较有趣。大概可以用来解释为什么盎格鲁人的女诗人比犹太人的要多。
好戏没开场就闭幕,这会使女人发疯做各种各样奇怪的事比如写诗。;)
我以前有一位犹太胖子老师说:对付犹太女人最历害的方式是让她们
生、生、生,好象与割礼没有太大关系。
反过来想想,犹太女人对孩子可够负责:我滑雪,我休假,上图书馆
,都见到犹太女人带着孩子。犹太女人的修养很高,钢琴、提琴老师
都很多,都传承给了孩子。有时想想,犹太女人也都是诗人,
只不过,她们的诗就是他们培养出来的“天才”。这个在最近两百年
内数也数不过来。
- posted on 02/08/2008
从日常生活所见总结来看,一般说来,犹太人家里一般都生很多孩子,
也很重视孩子教育,不仅仅是妈妈们,爸爸们对孩子也很负责,比如
说做各种球类教练,要花很多时间的,也好在他们有能力和条件。我
们中国人跟他们一比,很有小巫见大巫的味道。
犹太妈妈们能量很大,贡献精神也很大,个人也很历害。日本妈妈们
的贡献精神也比中国妈妈们强。中国妈妈们作为整体,随着生活水准
的上升,贡献精神也逐渐进步。咖啡里七月老瓦对网站管理的贡献精
神是我最叹服的。
xw wrote:
八十一子 wrote:我以前有一位犹太胖子老师说:对付犹太女人最历害的方式是让她们
touche wrote:这个假说比较有趣。大概可以用来解释为什么盎格鲁人的女诗人比犹太人的要多。
好戏没开场就闭幕,这会使女人发疯做各种各样奇怪的事比如写诗。;)
生、生、生,好象与割礼没有太大关系。
反过来想想,犹太女人对孩子可够负责:我滑雪,我休假,上图书馆
,都见到犹太女人带着孩子。犹太女人的修养很高,钢琴、提琴老师
都很多,都传承给了孩子。有时想想,犹太女人也都是诗人,
只不过,她们的诗就是他们培养出来的“天才”。这个在最近两百年
内数也数不过来。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/08/2008
xw wrote:
我以前有一位犹太胖子老师说:对付犹太女人最历害的方式是让她们
生、生、生,好象与割礼没有太大关系。
都晓得犹太人喜欢中餐,这下犹太女人喜欢wonton汤的原因也找到了——进店以后隔着橱窗看,原来就是拼写的not now:)
- posted on 02/11/2008
咖啡屋真的让人喜欢!有太多的精辟论点!这些都是我想了解的。
xw wrote:
老方说的有天然道理。但人类文明好象是朝另一个方向的,最先割割
皮以成就与上帝的契约?(估计也不是,最先还是从卫生角度说虑椋?
,割来割去,就割出文化趣味来了,割来割去,文化也朝着割的趣味
上去了。。。
touche wrote:
1)割礼强化性福生活;
2)假定基督教是个原因的话,这是一石双鸟。精神肉体相互扶持。至于为什么韩国选择基督教,我以为岛民缺乏本土文化支柱,在与强邻抗衡中,自然远采近斥。
文明文明就在于有些东西假装看得见,有些东西假装看不见。只是说割礼不提性趣就像说美国中东政策不提石油一样。
>老瓦 wrote:
最初实施割礼的古埃及人,都是在成年以后,主要因为卫生考虑吧。但犹太人把仪式提前到了婴儿阶段,目的是给种族打上一个印记,完全不是当事人的志愿。而韩国选择了小学五六年级,与小和尚出家年龄相仿,是否有一点把宗教与净身联系起来的意味,当然只是半净。
日本的基督教远没有韩国那么狂热,物质文明最最西化的日本,骨子里面保存了最东方的精髓。xw说韩国是亚细亚的孤儿,可谓一针见血。
风子 wrote:
在文化进步意义上,割礼同裹足正好相反。一个是生来的约束也要去掉;一个是自然的天性也要加以约束。一加一减,肉体对精神的作用就显示出来了。
中国近二十年来国力渐增,国人眼界大开,估计同割双眼皮流行有很大关系。
关于犹太妈妈的贡献问题,据我所知,犹太血统是以母亲来论的,父亲不起什么作用,这也许是犹太妈妈愿意奉献的根本原因。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
割礼和环切是两个相关却又不同的词,应该分开讨论吧? - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
割礼是切包皮的意思吗?好象在中国大陆只有包皮过长的男人才去做这个手术。并没上升到什么礼。韩国人有意思。不多余的也切吗? - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
moab wrote:
割礼和环切是两个相关却又不同的词,应该分开讨论吧?
就是就是,如今先进文明做菜都提倡削胡萝卜皮,和割礼是两码事;)) - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
什么削胡萝卜皮?什么两码事。直接说嘛!????????????? - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
我把moab的意思引申了一下,比如你把胡萝卜削皮用来做菜(目的是清洁,然后填肚子解决生存),和你把胡萝卜削皮用来祭祀国宴(比如萝卜雕花),是两件不同的事情。 - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/11/2008
回答得好斯文哦,我蒙蒙胧胧得懂了。 - posted on 02/12/2008
冒咖啡诸位MM们之大不违,讲个和割包皮有关的故事吧,道歉在先! :-)
一个单身男人在一个小商店里看到一个四方的小机器,旁边的牌子上赫然写着,“可以代替女人!”他实在搞不明白这个东东怎么代替女人,就把它拿在手里摆弄,发现侧面有一个不大不小的圆洞,觉得恍然大悟,心中暗喜,立刻买了下来。回家后就迫不及待,马上把自己那活掏出来,插进机器的洞里。那晓得刚一打开电源,就觉得一阵钻心疼痛,赶紧把家伙拔出来,已是鲜血淋漓了。这个男人大怒,拿了机器就去找商店老板算账。老板却说,这种机器卖的很好啊,从来没有人抱怨过。男人说那你给我用用看。于是老板找了根胡萝卜,插在机器的洞里,电源一开,几秒种就把胡萝卜皮削的干干净净。老板接着介绍说,这个机器还有另外两个功能,现在设置的功能是削皮,换到别的位置上还可以切片、刨丝呢,你要不要回去再试试?那个男人羞愧难当,但马上一阵窃喜,庆幸自己只试了一个功能,虽然疼痛,好歹把包皮割了。
- Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/14/2008
简直太搞啦!吼吼! - Re: 割礼为什么在韩国兴盛?posted on 02/15/2008
touche wrote:哈哈哈,图教授,这么有趣的回贴怎么今天才读到呢,哈哈哈,有可能的话下次写进我小说里去。盗用一下。
我以为是常识可以回避的呢。割礼在以前卫生条件差的情况下是一个有益的措施。现在作为对男性脱敏的措施也还是有好处的。男人在床上太敏感,好戏没开场就闭幕,这会使女人发疯做各种各样奇怪的事比如写诗。;)
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