前回考马可波罗地名,考到一处河流,Kara-moran,最先以为是黄
河,后来又以为是淮河,最后还是确实为黄河。
英文版还有三处Singui,先后确实为西宁州,江州和苏州,还有考证
第二个为重庆的,唉,这些个北蛮发音:-)
http://www.pos1.info/m/marcopolo.htm
最近有了点蒙古情节,便顺着读来去。今天早晨读法国人写的《蒙古
人远征记》,读到一段黄河命名,似能澄清一些,似也不清:
----
成吉思汗的远征是从西夏国开始的。西夏当时已经是定居的文明民族
,面对蒙古铁骑,西夏王李安全组织了有效的防御,以致成吉思汗几
次蹂躏西夏都末能攻陷其都城中兴府和灵州。西夏王李安全以纳贡者
身份保住了王位。
一二零九年,成吉思汗再次回军包围中兴府,他企图引黄河水,水灌
中兴府从而压取宁夏,然而,水坝工程对蒙古人来说是很复杂的,他
们未能按预定方向引水。这一次西夏王将自己的女儿香公主献给成吉
思汗,求得和平。和亲!
成吉思汗对香公主很喜欢。事实上,成吉思汗喜欢女人,就像他喜欢
战争。但对待女人,他是有分寸的,女人只是他战争间隙调味品,他
从不会因为女人而误了军国大事。他常对心腹将领说:“女人如甘醇
,少饮则提神爽气抑性;多饮则耗神消元;滥饮则灭志丧身。”可是
在香公主面前,这一切都发霉了。
成吉思汗很快爱上了香公主,以致香公主投黄河自杀后,成吉思汗痛
苦万分,派出三千铁骑顺水去寻找香公主,从天明寻到天黑,从上游
找到下游,之后又在黄河边破土立墓,以此纪念香公主。把黄河称作
“哈吞高勒”,“哈吞高”蒙古语之意为“夫人河”。
&
香公主为什么自杀?网上也未能找到。只有香香公主,怕是以她为原
型?她哪年自杀的都弄不清,得翻翻《元史》才成。成吉思汗与西夏
渊源深厚。打自“和亲”后,一二一一年,便挥军向金,继承者于一
二三四年结束。一二一八年,成吉思汗命大将哲别玄军攻打契丹辽国
--西辽?很快就征服,以后就面临花剌子模。。。
前面一直说成吉思汗死于西夏决战的炮火重创,这里是维基:
----
1219年親率蒙古主力西征,金得以苟安一時。成吉思汗西征時,先後
消滅了西遼、花剌子模及許多國家,又派速不臺率領蒙古軍向欽察草
原擴張。
成吉思汗回師後,再攻西夏。1227年7月,在蒙古軍圍困西夏首都時,
成吉思汗病逝於賀蘭山,終年65歲,死後葬在不爾罕山(今肯特山)
接近斡難河源頭(Onon River)的地方,其死因至今眾說紛紜,而其真
正的陵寢至今尚未被確認其位置。
- Re: Kara-Moran, Kara-Khitan etc.posted on 06/26/2008
俄国片《蒙古》或《成吉思汗》正好在上映:
- posted on 06/26/2008
Have you seen it? I plan to go to the theater this weekend.
I am interested in how the movie portrays his relationship with his four sons, especially his first son Jochi. According to the Empires of the Steppes, Jochi was conceived during the time when his wife was kidnapped by his rival. It could very well be true that Jochi was not his biological son. But he treated him as his own regardless.
touche wrote:
俄国片《蒙古》或《成吉思汗》正好在上映:
- posted on 06/26/2008
No, I haven't. But this one is not to be missed.
tar wrote:
Have you seen it? I plan to go to the theater this weekend.
I am interested in how the movie portrays his relationship with his four sons, especially his first son Jochi. According to the Empires of the Steppes, Jochi was conceived during the time when his wife was kidnapped by his rival. It could very well be true that Jochi was not his biological son. But he treated him as his own regardless.
touche wrote:
俄国片《蒙古》或《成吉思汗》正好在上映:
- posted on 06/27/2008
这许多,估计不是一部电影演得了的。
要说成吉思杰当初,也急需人才,部民团结,兄弟义气,当然不把长
子之出当一回事。另外,早先部分的风俗,也不是现代所想。
书中后来老大老二有争,都没有好果子吃。但蒙古帝国天大的地盘,
横刀立马,有什么好争的呢?向上的时期,人心胸都大。
touche wrote:
No, I haven't. But this one is not to be missed.
tar wrote:
Have you seen it? I plan to go to the theater this weekend.
I am interested in how the movie portrays his relationship with his four sons, especially his first son Jochi. According to the Empires of the Steppes, Jochi was conceived during the time when his wife was kidnapped by his rival. It could very well be true that Jochi was not his biological son. But he treated him as his own regardless.
touche wrote:
俄国片《蒙古》或《成吉思汗》正好在上映:
Thanks, I will find a chance to go.
- posted on 06/27/2008
I read the Empires of the Steppes quite a few years ago and don't quite remember the feud between Jochi and Chagatai. My impression was that the Chagatai house played more of neutral role in determining the successions of the great Khans; whilst the successors of Jochi were the kingmakers in both Mongka and Khublai's ascension to the throne.
One of the things I found most impressive about the Mongol culture was that the older sons were encouraged to go out fight for their own territories while traditionally the youngest was given the home turf. This might be the single most important reason that their empire expanded so quickly and so fiercely. Instead of infighting for sitting under daddy's protective umbrella, the sons were all motivated to seeking their own glory. Therefore, it was no surprise that their greatest territorial expansion was achieved under the second or third generation.
xw wrote:
这许多,估计不是一部电影演得了的。
要说成吉思杰当初,也急需人才,部民团结,兄弟义气,当然不把长
子之出当一回事。另外,早先部分的风俗,也不是现代所想。
书中后来老大老二有争,都没有好果子吃。但蒙古帝国天大的地盘,
横刀立马,有什么好争的呢?向上的时期,人心胸都大。
touche wrote:Thanks, I will find a chance to go.
No, I haven't. But this one is not to be missed.
tar wrote:
Have you seen it? I plan to go to the theater this weekend.
I am interested in how the movie portrays his relationship with his four sons, especially his first son Jochi. According to the Empires of the Steppes, Jochi was conceived during the time when his wife was kidnapped by his rival. It could very well be true that Jochi was not his biological son. But he treated him as his own regardless.
touche wrote:
俄国片《蒙古》或《成吉思汗》正好在上映:
- posted on 06/30/2008
tar wrote:
I read the Empires of the Steppes quite a few years ago and don't quite remember the feud between Jochi and Chagatai. My impression was that the Chagatai house played more of neutral role in determining the successions of the great Khans; whilst the successors of Jochi were the kingmakers in both Mongka and Khublai's ascension to the throne.
如果我们谈的是同一本书的话。书中第二章,向花剌子模讨血帐前
也遂妃心事重重,向成吉思汗问后。
术赤与察合台相争,成吉思汗劝解,经那么一闹,察合台和术赤均推
举三子,窝阔台为继位者。
成吉思汗问四子拖雷有什么意见,拖雷支持窝阔台为汗位继承人,表
示要始终站在窝阔台身旁,提醒他忘掉的事事,弥补他熟睡时的疏忽
,愿作他应声的随从,策马的长鞭,应声不落后,前进不落伍,愿为
他长行征进,愿为之短兵相接。
成吉思汗告诉四个儿子天下地面辽阔,江河众多,每个人都可以施展
自己的报负。
这真是一本很好的书,上帝之鞭,会不会过于刻骨?
- posted on 07/08/2008
I am not sure if it's the same book. It was written by René Grousset (I read the English translation), and covers all the nomad tribes roaming through the central Asia steppes since the Huns. If the book you read already talks about the Mongols in Chapter two, then most likely they are not the same.
I just got on to wiki and there is a description of the dispute between the borthers. It involves a siege of Khwarezmian city, whcih was promised as a war spoil to Jochi. Quite sensibly he wanted to negotiate a settlement while Chagatai wanted to destroy the city. It led to a quarrel where Jochi's blood lineage was questioned by Chagatai. Eventually Genghis Khan had to step in and called a kurultai to reaffirm Jochi's legitimacy.
The rest is in agreemnet with your quote including Ogedei's selection as the successor.
With his descendants attaining the dubious reputation as the most brutal conquerors this side of Denube had to see, who knew Jochi had a soft spot in his heart. ;-)
xw wrote:
tar wrote:如果我们谈的是同一本书的话。书中第二章,向花剌子模讨血帐前
I read the Empires of the Steppes quite a few years ago and don't quite remember the feud between Jochi and Chagatai. My impression was that the Chagatai house played more of neutral role in determining the successions of the great Khans; whilst the successors of Jochi were the kingmakers in both Mongka and Khublai's ascension to the throne.
也遂妃心事重重,向成吉思汗问后。
术赤与察合台相争,成吉思汗劝解,经那么一闹,察合台和术赤均推
举三子,窝阔台为继位者。
成吉思汗问四子拖雷有什么意见,拖雷支持窝阔台为汗位继承人,表
示要始终站在窝阔台身旁,提醒他忘掉的事事,弥补他熟睡时的疏忽
,愿作他应声的随从,策马的长鞭,应声不落后,前进不落伍,愿为
他长行征进,愿为之短兵相接。
成吉思汗告诉四个儿子天下地面辽阔,江河众多,每个人都可以施展
自己的报负。
这真是一本很好的书,上帝之鞭,会不会过于刻骨?
- Re: Kara-Moran, Kara-Khitan etc.posted on 07/08/2008
看了电影,谢推荐。因为是写成吉思汗所以好看,电影本身拍的很美,故事讲的却一般。成吉思汗的早期本来就sketchy,还给改掉了很多,又给戏剧化的更是神叨叨的,对他能够统一蒙古的当时政治经济军事背景涉及很少,最多几句话。他的子女只出现了Jochi,电影里就implies他父亲是Merkit人了,还一个女儿,父亲是西夏人,也不知真假。还有里面西夏人说汉语,应该么?
xw说的是什么书?tar说的那本也非常好,我虽已忘的差不多了,但就是它改变了我对nomads的印象。 - posted on 07/09/2008
那是不同的一本书。我的书名叫“蒙古人远征记--草原帝国争霸史”
,法国德阿*托隆着,我也找不到英文名。
是插图本,以前总觉得花里胡骚,现在喜欢了。
浮生 wrote:
看了电影,谢推荐。因为是写成吉思汗所以好看,电影本身拍的很美,故事讲的却一般。成吉思汗的早期本来就sketchy,还给改掉了很多,又给戏剧化的更是神叨叨的,对他能够统一蒙古的当时政治经济军事背景涉及很少,最多几句话。他的子女只出现了Jochi,电影里就implies他父亲是Merkit人了,还一个女儿,父亲是西夏人,也不知真假。还有里面西夏人说汉语,应该么?
Merkit ? 我书中译作“篾儿乞”种。乍读还当作丐帮什么的了:)
xw说的是什么书?tar说的那本也非常好,我虽已忘的差不多了,但就是它改变了我对nomads的印象。
关于游牧民族,威尔斯的世界史纲中这几段有很好的论述:
===
可以这样说,那些原始文明都是“服从的共同体”:服从神王或神授
之王是他们的凝聚力的源泉;而游牧民族则是另一种团结类型,我们
称之为“意愿的共同体”。在一个游动的战斗整体中,个人必须既要
靠自己又要遵守纪律。这种共同体的头领必须是有强大号召力,而不
是以力服人的主人。这种有共同愿望的共同体在人类的整个历史上都
能看到;所有的游牧民都有一个共同特征--不管是诺迪克人、闪米
特人还是蒙古利亚人,从个人角度来看,他们比定居民族更乐于服从
也更坚强勇敢。诺 迪克君主率军攻进了意大利和希腊,他们原本没
有系统的神庙崇拜,他们在征服地发现了这些东西,就接受并适应了
这种崇拜。希腊人和拉丁人轻而易举地恢复了共和体制,在印度的雅
利安人也是如此。早期的法兰克和日耳曼王国中就已有了选举的传统
,当然只是在贵族或王族中选举。早期的哈里发都是通过选举产生的
,以色列的士师、迦太基和提尔的“国王”也是通过选举产生的,在
忽必烈成为中国人皇帝之前蒙古大汗也是选举出来的。
我们在定居的地区可以看到另一种相反的观念,即认为国王是神圣的
,不是可以通过选举产生的,他们拥有与生俱来的、世代相传的统治
权。
随着历史的发展,人类社会出现了新的复杂的因素:游牧民变成了中
介者--成了商人,航运业在世界事务中所占的地位越来越重要。随
着航海活动的发展,人们的思想越来越趋于自由开放,就像居住在闭
塞的环境中会使人胆怯和保守一样。。。但是,尽管出现了这么多复
杂因素,尽管发生了巨大变化,人们被迫服从的办法和理想的办法之
间的明显对立一直贯穿于整个人类文明史中,直到今天,它们之间的
对立仍然很明显。
即使是最卑下的文明也为人类提供了许多舒适和愉悦,但是人的那种
永不满足和不驯的本性一直在努力把文明从它原先所依赖的被动服从
的共同体改造成一个主动参与的意愿共同体。这在人类的血液中,尤
其是在君主和贵族的血液中仍存在着强烈的游牧精神,这种精神有时
会发挥出极大的作用,那种急于向外扩张的永不满足的野心所激发出
来的力量,同那种使今天的大多数人在受别人领导和约束时就会狂躁
不安以及总是企望加入我们所能容忍的无论什么样的政府的精神是一
样的。
历史上出现过的“服从的共同体”在军事和政治上的懦弱和无能,使
人类的这种将文明与自由融合在一起的本性一代代地传承下来。人们
一旦习惯于服从,就会很容易被征服和成为争夺对象;埃及、美索不
达米亚和印度这些最早的和最典型的容易被征服的地方,这些“文明
的摇蓝”,它们曾被从一个君主手里转到另一个君主手里,它们的这
种被动最能说明这个问题。一个软弱的文明对那些惯于掠夺的自由人
来说是一张永远的请贴。
然而,从另一角度来看,一个“意愿共同体”很难将那些强硬者真正
融于其中;它是一个很难组成的共同体,而将它维持下去则更困难。
亚历山大大帝的故事就是一个很好的例子,那些马其顿将领们的意愿
共同体在亚历山大命令他们崇拜他时就迅速瓦解。克利图斯的被害是
自由和服从的传统之间的一场很有代表性的斗争,每当有一个从旷野
来的新征服者驻进古代君主的皇宫中时,这种斗争就不可避免地发生。
罗马共和国,是世界历史上第一个伟大的意愿共同体,是第一个比一
个城市大很多的自由的共同体,它随着本身的成长而逐步衰弱,因胜
利而一蹶不振,直到最后沦为一个复古式的君主国,并迅速衰败下去
,成了在一小群入侵者面前瓦解的最脆弱的受奴役的共同体。
韦尔斯《世界史纲》第三十三章“西方文明的复兴”,第一节:基督
教和教育的普及。
这里有网上的节版《世界史纲》,估计不足原本五分之一:
http://www.xiaoshuo.com/readindex/index_00159322.html - posted on 07/09/2008
I am yet to find the time to see the movie. I've read a few good reviews. Obviously, as entertainment, it is very hard to present it very accurately in historical details. But do you recommend the movie?
他的子女只出现了Jochi
The director is Russian, so maybe he's more obsessed with him because of the Golden Horde. ;-)
但就是它改变了我对nomads的印象。
Me too. And xw's line from 世界史纲 about the nomad people's infusion of the strong survival instincts into the superior civilizations with their military conquests is very persuasive. However, the lack of proper respect for order and authority, which is ingrained in their very existence, pre-determined that their rules over the conquered people were short lived. The Mongol Khanates didn't survive too long in all of their realms; neither did Timurlane's enormous empire.
Only the Ottoman Turks were the exception. I can only surmise that their long transformation from an Asian tribe to an enormous power at the door of Europe coincides with the rise of Islam -a dominant idealogy capable of providing a foundation in building a civilization.
浮生 wrote:
看了电影,谢推荐。因为是写成吉思汗所以好看,电影本身拍的很美,故事讲的却一般。成吉思汗的早期本来就sketchy,还给改掉了很多,又给戏剧化的更是神叨叨的,对他能够统一蒙古的当时政治经济军事背景涉及很少,最多几句话。他的子女只出现了Jochi,电影里就implies他父亲是Merkit人了,还一个女儿,父亲是西夏人,也不知真假。还有里面西夏人说汉语,应该么?
xw说的是什么书?tar说的那本也非常好,我虽已忘的差不多了,但就是它改变了我对nomads的印象。 - Re: Kara-Moran, Kara-Khitan etc.posted on 07/09/2008
xw wrote:
Merkit ? 我书中译作“篾儿乞”种。乍读还当作丐帮什么的了:)
;-)
中国古代史书对外族的名字翻译总是找最难听的字,不然就是野兽名称。
近代又走另一个极端,美法德英崇拜至极。 - posted on 05/26/2009
Finally saw the movie last week. Was expecting a biopic, a little disappointed I guess.
Yep, the Tangut spoke Mandarin, a little odd. And the little girl, was she an orphan they picked up on their way home? When Borte and Jochi went to XiXia to get Temugin, the girl was not with them.
浮生 wrote:
看了电影,谢推荐。因为是写成吉思汗所以好看,电影本身拍的很美,故事讲的却一般。成吉思汗的早期本来就sketchy,还给改掉了很多,又给戏剧化的更是神叨叨的,对他能够统一蒙古的当时政治经济军事背景涉及很少,最多几句话。他的子女只出现了Jochi,电影里就implies他父亲是Merkit人了,还一个女儿,父亲是西夏人,也不知真假。还有里面西夏人说汉语,应该么?
xw说的是什么书?tar说的那本也非常好,我虽已忘的差不多了,但就是它改变了我对nomads的印象。 - posted on 05/27/2009
xw这段文字真好。只要xw平实写来,不去费心思说什么,暗示什么的文字都好,温润厚重。
xw wrote:
前回考马可波罗地名,考到一处河流,Kara-moran,最先以为是黄
河,后来又以为是淮河,最后还是确实为黄河。
英文版还有三处Singui,先后确实为西宁州,江州和苏州,还有考证
第二个为重庆的,唉,这些个北蛮发音:-)
http://www.pos1.info/m/marcopolo.htm 最近有了点蒙古情节,便顺着读来去。今天早晨读法国人写的《蒙古
人远征记》,读到一段黄河命名,似能澄清一些,似也不清:
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成吉思汗的远征是从西夏国开始的。西夏当时已经是定居的文明民族
,面对蒙古铁骑,西夏王李安全组织了有效的防御,以致成吉思汗几
次蹂躏西夏都末能攻陷其都城中兴府和灵州。西夏王李安全以纳贡者
身份保住了王位。
一二零九年,成吉思汗再次回军包围中兴府,他企图引黄河水,水灌
中兴府从而压取宁夏,然而,水坝工程对蒙古人来说是很复杂的,他
们未能按预定方向引水。这一次西夏王将自己的女儿香公主献给成吉
思汗,求得和平。和亲!
成吉思汗对香公主很喜欢。事实上,成吉思汗喜欢女人,就像他喜欢
战争。但对待女人,他是有分寸的,女人只是他战争间隙调味品,他
从不会因为女人而误了军国大事。他常对心腹将领说:“女人如甘醇
,少饮则提神爽气抑性;多饮则耗神消元;滥饮则灭志丧身。”可是
在香公主面前,这一切都发霉了。
成吉思汗很快爱上了香公主,以致香公主投黄河自杀后,成吉思汗痛
苦万分,派出三千铁骑顺水去寻找香公主,从天明寻到天黑,从上游
找到下游,之后又在黄河边破土立墓,以此纪念香公主。把黄河称作
“哈吞高勒”,“哈吞高”蒙古语之意为“夫人河”。
&
香公主为什么自杀?网上也未能找到。只有香香公主,怕是以她为原
型?她哪年自杀的都弄不清,得翻翻《元史》才成。成吉思汗与西夏
渊源深厚。打自“和亲”后,一二一一年,便挥军向金,继承者于一
二三四年结束。一二一八年,成吉思汗命大将哲别玄军攻打契丹辽国
--西辽?很快就征服,以后就面临花剌子模。。。
前面一直说成吉思汗死于西夏决战的炮火重创,这里是维基:
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1219年親率蒙古主力西征,金得以苟安一時。成吉思汗西征時,先後
消滅了西遼、花剌子模及許多國家,又派速不臺率領蒙古軍向欽察草
原擴張。
成吉思汗回師後,再攻西夏。1227年7月,在蒙古軍圍困西夏首都時,
成吉思汗病逝於賀蘭山,終年65歲,死後葬在不爾罕山(今肯特山)
接近斡難河源頭(Onon River)的地方,其死因至今眾說紛紜,而其真
正的陵寢至今尚未被確認其位置。
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