feiming提到我从前的英文诗。实际上,那几首是我刚刚学习英文诗几个月就写出的,当时只仔细读过十来首英文诗,当然最重要的启蒙老师是红河兄弟。十来年前那几个月,红河每天都写一封长信来,我就查着字典读他的诗。
因为他,我认识了dylan,认识了乔伊斯,认识了5、60年代所有的反叛icon英雄。因为他我知道什么是写作,什么是诗歌,什么是muse。他开了一扇窗,我就跳下去了...
我这种野路子半路出家,没上过什么学读过什么书,更别说写作训练的人能写几个字都是因为有红河、xw这样的兄弟。
后来red进监狱,被驱逐,我也经历非常时期。这时候,经历才把red从前的预言变成真实。之后,红河把他的小说给我看,我见到了gary snyder, beat generation唯一还活着的成员。
只用了一个K词,就搅动咖啡深入讨论了在路上的问题,看来我得多用几次K,否则整个坛子淡出鸟来。
讨论继续,让我们看看70岁了的beat到底是怎么回事儿。
- posted on 04/23/2009
其实,训练更多未必就能写出东西, 技巧只是诗性的载体,能够自如运用就可以了,没有诗性有技巧最后只能成评论者。
我有不只一个北大中文系或戏剧学院戏文系的朋友,未入大学之前才华横溢,而且写出过有影响的小说剧本,但入大学之后学了太多文学理论,读了太多伟大作品,结果被框住了,被吓着了,被矮化了, 被狂妄了,结果普遍眼高手低。现在这些人是有写热播电视连续剧的,但他们自己都苦笑是看在钱的份上写的,那东东传不下去。
玛雅,你的经历独特,也够反叛, 愤世嫉俗,我感觉你是有潜力写出东西来的,因为在你早期的英文诗中有一种类似红河的连贯而自然的文气,而当代的诗歌最大的问题我以为是add,一个意像跳跃到另外一个意像,蒙太奇太多,但杂乱的没有意义,流于形式主义,读了之后炫目而没有感觉, 关键是现代生活的平庸造成的诗意不足。 - Re: 我与beat generationposted on 04/23/2009
T.S.Eliot and Randall Jarrell are both excellent critics and poets at the same time. - Re: 我与beat generationposted on 04/23/2009
玛雅上回拜见迪伦要成行就好了,这样咖啡也有了Beat的直传。
我知道金斯堡那一批是大麻试验集团。而Beatles搞电声试验,又要
说到六十年代的性解放,那个有点共产主义。
或者说是小规模宗教集会。谁说反叛就无力?美国那段时间的原创力
无限,本来音乐不怎么样的英美世界倒成了通俗音乐的领军。摇滚、
民权、反战、游行、、、都是让人high的东西,能让人结成意愿共同
体,有创力。
音乐,随风飘去!咖啡用什么组成意愿共同体呢?甲骨文?拉丁?
- posted on 04/23/2009
玛雅 wrote:
feiming提到我从前的英文诗。实际上,那几首是我刚刚学习英文诗几个月就写出的,当时只仔细读过十来首英文诗,当然最重要的启蒙老师是红河兄弟。十来年前那几个月,红河每天都写一封长信来,我就查着字典读他的诗。
因为他,我认识了dylan,认识了乔伊斯,认识了5、60年代所有的反叛icon英雄。因为他我知道什么是写作,什么是诗歌,什么是muse。他开了一扇窗,我就跳下去了...
我这种野路子半路出家,没上过什么学读过什么书,更别说写作训练的人能写几个字都是因为有红河、xw这样的兄弟。
后来red进监狱,被驱逐,我也经历非常时期。这时候,经历才把red从前的预言变成真实。之后,红河把他的小说给我看,我见到了gary snyder, beat generation唯一还活着的成员。
只用了一个K词,就搅动咖啡深入讨论了在路上的问题,看来我得多用几次K,否则整个坛子淡出鸟来。
讨论继续,让我们看看70岁了的beat到底是怎么回事儿。
您以为您能格儿,勇敢,敢于翻潮流?
推出 beat generation 是美国上流阶级的愚民政策!就象您这个网愚民网友一样!
用脑袋(NOT any other places) 想一想就知道了。想一想您们为什么要愚民网友,就知道您为什么被愚民。
- Re: 我与beat generationposted on 04/23/2009
关键是现代生活的平庸造成的诗意不足。
也是老生常谈了,“国家不幸诗家幸“。七十年代如《今天》那帮人的诗有一定影响力,如今却早都销声匿迹了。前不久买了本北岛签名的新诗集,却读不下去。
所以天下太平的时候艺术家们就只能玩怪诞,玩病态啦。
就是不知道如果海子还在会写些什么。也可能他明智的避免了平庸。
- posted on 04/24/2009
Murphy's Law wrote:
玛雅 wrote:您以为您能格儿,勇敢,敢于翻潮流?愚蠢!
feiming提到我从前的英文诗。实际上,那几首是我刚刚学习英文诗几个月就写出的,当时只仔细读过十来首英文诗,当然最重要的启蒙老师是红河兄弟。十来年前那几个月,红河每天都写一封长信来,我就查着字典读他的诗。
因为他,我认识了dylan,认识了乔伊斯,认识了5、60年代所有的反叛icon英雄。因为他我知道什么是写作,什么是诗歌,什么是muse。他开了一扇窗,我就跳下去了...
我这种野路子半路出家,没上过什么学读过什么书,更别说写作训练的人能写几个字都是因为有红河、xw这样的兄弟。
后来red进监狱,被驱逐,我也经历非常时期。这时候,经历才把red从前的预言变成真实。之后,红河把他的小说给我看,我见到了gary snyder, beat generation唯一还活着的成员。
只用了一个K词,就搅动咖啡深入讨论了在路上的问题,看来我得多用几次K,否则整个坛子淡出鸟来。
讨论继续,让我们看看70岁了的beat到底是怎么回事儿。
推出 beat generation 是美国上流阶级的愚民政策!就象您这个网愚民网友一样!
用脑袋(NOT any other places) 想一想就知道了。想一想您们为什么要愚民网友,就知道您为什么被愚民。
什么愚民,什么上流社会。这社会真还有那么规定?
没见帮摇滚乐队管帐的主儿,也当了财政部长(Greenspan),没有六
十年代,中国城恐怕还是和尚城吧?那犹太人、黑人、白人理想主义
青年闹一气,还惊动肯尼迪了的。你以为MLK是白痴?
这也不会全是瞎闹吧?还有切身干系(种族隔离,上越南送命)。至少
在美国种族平等了,黑人还能当总统。迪伦怎么唱的?
For the Times They are a-Changin':
......
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
.......
六十年代英美给积累的精神财富,估计能用五十年有余。他们肯定改
变了世界的,这色括中国在内。
- posted on 04/24/2009
至少在美国种族平等了...
老夫子是很理想主义啊!:-) 准确说应该是,把“种族平等”写进了宪法修正案。在人的意识里种族平等不是件容易的事情。一场嬉皮运动就解决了?我想人类目前无法解决,直到这个人类的政治问题变成生物的进化策略(人类社会能不能走到这一步?)。我们可以有一位受人尊重的黑人总统,但是我们不可能让白人的女孩子都嫁黑人。
这个嬉皮运动其实也是一个测不准原则。不是所有的人既看见了自由,平等,解放,同时也看见了挥霍财富,麻痹精神,和损伤健康。有些傻瓜,象Jack Kerouac,不是把自己都玩了进去?死于酗酒。有些聪明人,象约翰·列侬,追求家庭幸福的时候,就不再嬉皮。他说过,“现在不结婚就是嬉皮。我对嬉皮不感兴趣。”不过列侬最后还是死于受了嬉皮精神鼓舞的Mark David Chapman的枪下。
这些嬉皮士的内心可以是为了自由,但很难扯上种族平等。后者充其量不过是副产品。
嬉皮使贫穷生活合理化(这就是"愚民"),它挥霍金钱,爱情、天赋和生命。嬉皮就是为玛雅的 CAO 找一个便当的理由。:-)
关于歌词:您总能发现棒子面,往嬉皮士脸上帖。:-) 嬉皮运动最糟糕的地方就是自欺欺人地忽略了界限与不平等,假装一些歌曲唱片就可在价值上超过沉重的种族历史。
不是什么规定,是潜规律。不过,我写得也不准确。“利用”可能比“推出”好一些。
xw wrote:
什么愚民,什么上流社会。这社会真还有那么规定?
没见帮摇滚乐队管帐的主儿,也当了财政部长(Greenspan),没有六
十年代,中国城恐怕还是和尚城吧?那犹太人、黑人、白人理想主义
青年闹一气,还惊动肯尼迪了的。你以为MLK是白痴?
这也不会全是瞎闹吧?还有切身干系(种族隔离,上越南送命)。至少
在美国种族平等了,黑人还能当总统。迪伦怎么唱的?
For the Times They are a-Changin':
......
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
.......
变了世界的,这色括中国在内。
- posted on 04/24/2009
我还是第一回见有人把“阴谋论”这么活学活用的,好家伙连嬉皮都是算计好的,全世界的某几个人就决定了在68年的4月来一场红色风暴,红五月,红太阳。切,阴谋比这还深呢,全都在忽悠世界人民。100年前,他们就合计好了要打两次世界大战,完了还要让美国佬大获全胜。还有呢,12年后核战争都是算计好了的。
反叛需要理由吗?有人说造反就是有理,有人说,rebel does not even need a cause.
- posted on 04/24/2009
就算不是“算计好的”,那叫什么来着?对了,叫外行看热闹,内行看门道。象一个叫MLK的就是内行,他决不是白痴,因为他抓住了机会。那些想CAO的,就找到了借口;那些没有钱买衣服的,穿着露PP的裤子,就不再感到脸发烧。。。剩下那些看不出来门道的,就只有做牺牲品--用酒,用药杀了自己,或是用枪去杀别人。。。
反叛需要理由吗?
不需要。连杀人,自杀都不需要,呵呵。
玛雅 wrote:
我还是第一回见有人把“阴谋论”这么活学活用的,好家伙连嬉皮都是算计好的,全世界的某几个人就决定了在68年的4月来一场红色风暴,红五月,红太阳。切,阴谋比这还深呢,全都在忽悠世界人民。100年前,他们就合计好了要打两次世界大战,完了还要让美国佬大获全胜。还有呢,12年后核战争都是算计好了的。
反叛需要理由吗?有人说造反就是有理,有人说,rebel does not even need a cause.
- Re: 我与beat generation/rebel without a causeposted on 04/24/2009
很欣赏玛雅的坦荡,今天才知道是半路出家,你有追求,有勇气!
自由的艺术, ”自由”的一词在西语的动词形式是’’解放’’.
自由艺术的解放,帮助人从奴役状态下寻求解放.一种追求真理的解放,追求人的本能在一个更高层次上的发展. ,[这”奴役状态’’也同时指人文,观念等精神范畴],这是艺术创造必备的情怀.
现代派的艺术,其时不是看作品,而是看创造者寻求解放和突破的精神,他的作品可能是失败的,追求艺术的自由是永恒的.包括 beat generation 的精神也是如此,
- posted on 04/25/2009
其实,追求从生命的“奴役状态”下解放出来最潇洒,最勇敢, 最彻底-- 往前走,不要往两边看。横鹿井二已经跳下去了,下一个该你了。。。:-) :-) :-) But, I don't, I repeat, I DON"T, recommend it.
咖啡客 wrote:
很欣赏玛雅的坦荡,今天才知道是半路出家,你有追求,有勇气!
自由的艺术, ”自由”的一词在西语的动词形式是’’解放’’.
自由艺术的解放,帮助人从奴役状态下寻求解放.一种追求真理的解放,追求人的本能在一个更高层次上的发展. ,[这”奴役状态’’也同时指人文,观念等精神范畴],这是艺术创造必备的情怀.
现代派的艺术,其时不是看作品,而是看创造者寻求解放和突破的精神,他的作品可能是失败的,追求艺术的自由是永恒的.包括 beat generation 的精神也是如此,
- posted on 04/25/2009
For Poet Gary Snyder, Every Day is Earth Day
By Adam Phillips
New York City
22 April 2009
Gary Snyder's poetry explores the beauty of the natural world
For nearly 60 years, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gary Snyder has combined an environmental awareness shaped by America's Far West with a Zen Buddhist perspective that celebrates and reveres the natural world.
With his laughing eyes, deeply furrowed skin and unruly white beard, Snyder looks every bit the wizened sage as he reads an excerpt from his translation of a poem by Han-Shan. This Chinese poet, whom Snyder affectionately calls a "mountain madman," lived more than 1,100 years ago in a cave, deep in the wilderness.
The path to Han-shan's place is laughable,
A path, but no sign of cart of horse,
Converging gorges - hard to trace their twists Jumbled cliffs - unbelievably rugged.
A thousand grasses bend with dew,
a hill of pines hums in the wind.
And now I've lost the shortcut home
Body asking shadow, how do you keep up?
(Click to listen to Snyder read an excerpt from Han-Shan's "Cold Mountain.")
Off the beaten path
Like Han-Shan, Snyder says he has gained personal and spiritual insights from his experiences in nature. He is intimately familiar with the wild landscapes of Japan, where he lived and studied Zen Buddhism as a young man. And he knows the winding trails of California's Sierra Nevada mountain range, his home for many years.
"A trail is really a handy thing," says Snyder. "It's a lot easier to hike on a trail than it is to crash through the brush. You get from Place A to Place B that way."
Snyder says the purpose of trails - in nature and in life - is to help you get to untouched places, where you can forge your own path
Snyder explains that, in earlier times, before village agriculture, people went into the woods and fields and the marshes to gather the various things they needed, such as berries for dye or food.
"And, of course, if you are going fishing or hunting, you know where to go to a marsh, a lake or stream. So the trail is only useful to get you to where you're going to leave the trail."
"The trail is not the true trail," he adds with a chuckle. "It's true in life, too."
In his poem, "Off the Trail," Snyder recalls hiking with his late wife, Carole, and the pleasures of a trackless wilderness:
…We are free to find our own way
Over rocks-through the trees-
Where there are no trails. The ridge and the forest
Present themselves to our eyes and feet
Which decide for themselves
In their old learned wisdom of doing
Where the wild will take us… We have
Been here before…
(Click to listen to Snyder read his poem "Off the Trail.")
Rediscovering the natural order
Snyder says there is also a unique fellowship between humans and nature that is embodied in one's "home place."
It's possible to catch glimpses of nature anywhere - even in Manhattan
"And it can be developed - even in Manhattan - by paying attention to where you are and by paying attention to what the elevation is, what the rock outcroppings might be, what birds stop there when they are migrating, if any."
Snyder considers himself "a watershed bio-regionalist." As such, he says, "I am particularly interested in where the original streams were, and can we find them again and maybe 'daylight' some of them?"
The term "daylighting" refers to efforts by some urban environmental planners to identify natural streams that have been diverted or paved over and restore them to their original state. Snyder says concerns about the natural environment are especially keen in California, where farmers depend on melting snow pack each spring to irrigate their fields.
"… And if global warming causes less snow to fall and to melt faster, and turns it into just rain so it runs off in the winter, that'd be the end of California agriculture," Snyder says matter-of-factly. "There were periods in the past when that's the way it was anyway."
A call for humans to clean up their act
Despite his concern about the enormous damage humans have done to the environment over the years, Snyder is hopeful such practices are changing, and he is confident, too, in the power and resilience of nature.
"We can say two things at the same time," he muses. "We can say we really have to work on improving our style here and clean up our act, and if we don't, we'll maybe be in very bad trouble and also cause a lot of trouble for other beings.
But then you can also say that, given the longer cycles of planetary change, nature always bats last. We can hope that will continue to be the case!"
Snyder, who was born in 1930, still has a few more books to write - including a Buddhist memoir - before, as he puts it, he "packs it away, drinks red wine and watches the sunset."
- posted on 04/25/2009
顶!
maya wrote:
For Poet Gary Snyder, Every Day is Earth Day
By Adam Phillips
New York City
22 April 2009
Gary Snyder's poetry explores the beauty of the natural world
For nearly 60 years, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gary Snyder has combined an environmental awareness shaped by America's Far West with a Zen Buddhist perspective that celebrates and reveres the natural world.
With his laughing eyes, deeply furrowed skin and unruly white beard, Snyder looks every bit the wizened sage as he reads an excerpt from his translation of a poem by Han-Shan. This Chinese poet, whom Snyder affectionately calls a "mountain madman," lived more than 1,100 years ago in a cave, deep in the wilderness.
The path to Han-shan's place is laughable,
A path, but no sign of cart of horse,
Converging gorges - hard to trace their twists Jumbled cliffs - unbelievably rugged.
A thousand grasses bend with dew,
a hill of pines hums in the wind.
And now I've lost the shortcut home
Body asking shadow, how do you keep up?
(Click to listen to Snyder read an excerpt from Han-Shan's "Cold Mountain.")
Off the beaten path
Like Han-Shan, Snyder says he has gained personal and spiritual insights from his experiences in nature. He is intimately familiar with the wild landscapes of Japan, where he lived and studied Zen Buddhism as a young man. And he knows the winding trails of California's Sierra Nevada mountain range, his home for many years.
"A trail is really a handy thing," says Snyder. "It's a lot easier to hike on a trail than it is to crash through the brush. You get from Place A to Place B that way."
Snyder says the purpose of trails - in nature and in life - is to help you get to untouched places, where you can forge your own path
Snyder explains that, in earlier times, before village agriculture, people went into the woods and fields and the marshes to gather the various things they needed, such as berries for dye or food.
"And, of course, if you are going fishing or hunting, you know where to go to a marsh, a lake or stream. So the trail is only useful to get you to where you're going to leave the trail."
"The trail is not the true trail," he adds with a chuckle. "It's true in life, too."
In his poem, "Off the Trail," Snyder recalls hiking with his late wife, Carole, and the pleasures of a trackless wilderness:
…We are free to find our own way
Over rocks-through the trees-
Where there are no trails. The ridge and the forest
Present themselves to our eyes and feet
Which decide for themselves
In their old learned wisdom of doing
Where the wild will take us… We have
Been here before…
(Click to listen to Snyder read his poem "Off the Trail.")
Rediscovering the natural order
Snyder says there is also a unique fellowship between humans and nature that is embodied in one's "home place."
It's possible to catch glimpses of nature anywhere - even in Manhattan
"And it can be developed - even in Manhattan - by paying attention to where you are and by paying attention to what the elevation is, what the rock outcroppings might be, what birds stop there when they are migrating, if any."
Snyder considers himself "a watershed bio-regionalist." As such, he says, "I am particularly interested in where the original streams were, and can we find them again and maybe 'daylight' some of them?"
The term "daylighting" refers to efforts by some urban environmental planners to identify natural streams that have been diverted or paved over and restore them to their original state. Snyder says concerns about the natural environment are especially keen in California, where farmers depend on melting snow pack each spring to irrigate their fields.
"… And if global warming causes less snow to fall and to melt faster, and turns it into just rain so it runs off in the winter, that'd be the end of California agriculture," Snyder says matter-of-factly. "There were periods in the past when that's the way it was anyway."
A call for humans to clean up their act
Despite his concern about the enormous damage humans have done to the environment over the years, Snyder is hopeful such practices are changing, and he is confident, too, in the power and resilience of nature.
"We can say two things at the same time," he muses. "We can say we really have to work on improving our style here and clean up our act, and if we don't, we'll maybe be in very bad trouble and also cause a lot of trouble for other beings.
But then you can also say that, given the longer cycles of planetary change, nature always bats last. We can hope that will continue to be the case!"
Snyder, who was born in 1930, still has a few more books to write - including a Buddhist memoir - before, as he puts it, he "packs it away, drinks red wine and watches the sunset."
- RE: 我与beat generation/rebel without a causeposted on 09/21/2013
Reply #12 mayati
- posted on 09/23/2013
Reply #14 maya跨掉一代似乎是人生一个阶段,理想主义了得。要现在,占华尔街就不行。
要说传统,倒是与雪莱拜伦的浪漫主义有承继,没有什么不好。如果罗马帝国还有几个人讲人道良心,象卡图鲁斯、塔西图斯以及原始基督教,那文明也只好称野暗了……
theBeatles后期有不少歌难能可贵,比如Bungalow Bill, USSR等等。最近迪伦有了精版歌谱书,可以精研一番,就在这里贴吧,与玛雅共享!
比较欣赏玛雅的直觉与真诚,难能可贵,当然,经历也非同一般。
共勉一声。最近这两天这网一下没了,估计是在搞维护?
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