The Summer of 1989
When the meeting started, I panicked. I’d been invited by the local Young Democrats Club to speak ten days after the Tiananmen Massacre. The whole Democracy Movement was broadcasted to the entire world throughout the spring, and the brutal killings on June 4th were shown on TV in people’s living room everywhere over and over again. What could I say that would illuminate more insight that people hadn’t already heard? The club president, a man in his late thirties with an elegant soft facial feature, called the quorum. He spent a few minutes discussing the routine club business, and then started to introduce the featured speaker. I stood up, took a deep breath, and plunged into the monologue. As I stammering on for a while recounting the narrative of the movement, I glanced at my audience and found them totally engrossed and captivated. Relaxed, my speech became more fluent. For the next twenty minutes, I discussed the aspirations, the desire of Chinese people to break out from the bondage of this despotic regime, and the tales of individual bravery and the selfless sacrifices of ordinary Chinese. I ended the speech by recalling the single most courageous defiance of all time, the indelible image tattooed in the collective consciousness of any TV watching audience, that of the young man standing up in front of a column of tanks. A thunderous applause brought down the house.
I settled in the bar afterwards, making small talks with people around me. The president was pressing me to join the club, learn some basic door-to-door campaign skills to buff up my bona fides. Half listening I thought to myself that it wasn’t a bad idea at all. As I glanced over my shoulder a very pretty girl walked up to me and introduced herself. She was a senior majoring in political science in the school, as it turned out. The events happening half a world away deeply touched her, and she wanted to know if personally she could have done something to help. I assured her that calling the local congressman and asking for economic sanction at this time was the most effective weapon in hastening the quick demise of that illegitimate brutal government. By my reckoning, I told her, it wouldn’t take more than two, three years, maybe five years tops. “The Chinese people are ready for democracy,” I said. Looking back, I suppose I sounded ridiculously naïve. Even though I knew it was more of wishful thinking than cold analysis of hard facts, but back then everybody was saying the exact same thing, almost trying to will it to happen. In any case I looked into her eyes and saw the fire of a young idealist who had projected a romantic crush on the heroes she saw on TV. But I resisted the urge to ask her phone number.
A couple of days later I was in New York city, staying with my college friends in their apartment near City College. Like us, they had wrestled the control of the local branch of the Chinese Scholars and Students Association and one of them now sat on the planning committee of the new Independent Chinese Students Associations of New York. That night he brought back the news that a huge demonstration was planned on the Saturday. I called my girlfriend and asked her to relay the news to my cohorts in our school. Although she didn’t particularly care about my newfound passion in activism, nonetheless she called the head honcho guy in our school. The new president of the Independent Chinese Students Association was a mild-mannered individual installed by a cabal of likeminded egotistic activists. With no consensus of whom should lead us, he was propped up by default because of his temperament. (The election result was a foregone conclusion since he was the only candidate.) He served in the position with conscientious effort, and within a few hours he tried to call everyone for the New York rally.
Saturday was hot and muggy. Although by then we had already become veterans of demonstrations and marches, but this one was huge. A big crowd gathered in front of United Nations headquarters. Speaker after speaker got on the stage and took turn to denounce the atrocity, ranting and wailing but no rabble rouser emerged. Speech making is the lost art that very few contemporary Chinese public figures have mastered. On the lighter side old acquaintances and long lost friends found the occasion to reconnect. Among them I was reintroduced to a guy I’d soon like to forget. The last encounter with him had been in the public bathhouse in our school in China many years before. Imagine two naked guys shouting and swearing at each other and ready to escalate it to a full-body-contact wrestling match that would have made Borat proud.
A little after midday the organizers marched us all the way to the 42nd street Chinese consulate. By then we had learned and practiced the slogan shouting to perfection. “What do we want?” the lead guy bellowed out. “Democracy!” the crowd roared. “When do we want it?” “Now!” Other intellectually more penetrating slogans involving bodily harm to Li Peng and Deng Xiaoping were the main staples too. I am always slightly embarrassed by the public display of emotions, not that I can contain myself from time to time. Ergo hiding behind a sea of humanity, I still dialed down a notch in joining in the chorus. It was a long march and the crowd was a little restless when we reached the designated area two hundred yards away from the consulate. People were shouting in the megaphones in the direction of that ugly building. Some half-hearted effort was made trying to send a negotiator into the consulate, but his entrance was refused. We were in a good mood regardless. People were taking pictures of each other. Rumor spread quickly that there was a video camera pointed at us in the consulate, but nobody had a care in the world. The defiance in Beijing emboldened us all.
The events happening in the ensuing weeks were a blur. It was traveling back and forth to New York, to Washington D.C.; many demonstrations and rallies and marches; speeches and slogans. One big march in D.C. stood out in my hazy memory, in part because I met many college classmates I hadn’t seen in years, amongst whom my college roommate came all the way from Texas. I always knew after graduation that we’d meet in the States, but not under such circumstances. The petite woman he introduced to me as his girlfriend seemed very nice, albeit a little disproportionate. He is a big guy even by American standards. We ended our march in front of the Chinese embassy. Along the way we still shouted slogans, but more light-heartedly, almost festive. The mood was further buoyed when they announced that a student lobbying group had been formed. A first term congresswoman named Nancy Pelosi was very sympathetic to the plight of the Chinese students. She was going to introduce legislations to help the beleaguered students who genuinely feared the reprisal for participating in these pro-democracy activities if they ever had to go back. The lobbying team would assist in educating the lawmakers about Chinese people and our culture, and also coordinating the grass root campaigns to call our local congresspersons to support Pelosi’s bill.
In between these rallies and marches, and the occasional research work in the lab, one day the Young Democrats called and asked me if I was interested in volunteering to help the reelection of a local city councilman. When I got to their office I was pleasantly surprised that they paired me with the pretty girl I met in that meeting to form a canvassing team. We went door-to-door under the hot sun the whole afternoon. The experience is interesting – I found out I am not cut out for this line of work. For one thing I don’t take the occasional rudeness and rejection very well. (To this day I try to be kind to religious proselytizers of all stripes coming to my door, even though I’d still politely ask them to leave me alone.) I like the idea of democracy, but I don’t like the making of sausages.
At the end of the day I mustered enough courage to ask my pretty colleague whether she wanted to have dinner with me. She said sure. Over the dinner we talked about our lives and our upbringings, although she’s the one doing most of the talking. Obviously she’s very interested in politics – both of her parents are professors in the school. From a very young age they instilled her a sense of civic duty to service. I have to admit at that point I was far more a cynic than she was. Lately though she had grown a great desire to travel. She’d decided to go to grad school in journalism – great way for combining her passion for justice and meeting interesting people. On the latter part, I made a joke that she’d started splendidly but everything would go down hill from there.
We went to see a movie afterwards.
In August I received an email (for those who remember the history of internet, back in the days our school was on BITNET instead of ARPANET) from my dear comrades from New York: we were going to form a national organization. Each school was to send two representatives to Chicago. I appointed myself to represent my school, and since nobody else wanted to join me for the eight hundred mile journey west, I hooked up with my two friends from the City College. The two city slickers barely knew how to drive a car, so I drove most of the 800 miles with very little help from them. The organizers rented a dormitory of University of Illinois at Chicago to house all the delegates. They put the three of us into the same room with an older scholarly looking man. Day and night he’s always busy with serious business at hand: either attending important meetings or fastidiously drafting bylaws or media pronouncements. We on the other hand were more interested in the extracurricular activities, like playing cards every night in our room. This was also a great place for those other splinter groups to recruit new converts. A battle for leadership supremacy was quietly fought with nil attention been paid by the mostly clueless delegates.
After a few chaotic days in which the agenda and the bylaws were discussed ad nauseum in plenary sessions, and fierce campaigning for the position of the president, vice president, treasury, etc., the first congress of the Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars was declared opened. We all felt proud to have given birth to a true democratic organization, and ushered in a new era for the unparalleled unity for the overseas Chinese democracy movement. The planned speeches lasted all morning, and in the afternoon the mic was opened to everybody for two hours. After patiently waiting for my turn, I strode confidently onto the stage and started to speak. For a few seconds the audience fell to a complete silence when I called for armed struggles against tyranny, fearing a radical militant in their midst. Then a hearty laughter broke out. With a straight face I forcefully went on to explain my arguments from a historic perspective, and many seemed to have been persuaded and were clapping when I finished. Either that or it was a hot boring afternoon and people needed some entertainment. I walked off the stage straight into a mob of reporters who desperately tried to pry out some information about me. Finally a cousin who was an alternate delegate from the host school came to my rescue. He drove me back to his home for a nice dinner and a long conversation lasting into the wee hours.
Walking in the campus that fall, the foliage cast a scarlet glow everywhere I looked. The hectic summer had passed and a tinge of regret lingered just one fleeting moment too long. Soon after, I steered myself back to reality. My advisor had been very accommodating to that point, but wanted me to focus more on my study and research. After all, he was supporting me financially. I passed the general exam that November, and again the normal life of a lab rat resumed. Occasionally some excitement could still break up the otherwise dour monotonic existence. I count meeting the incomparable Wu’er Kaixi as one such moment. Say whatever you like about him, he has the leadership charisma, and is a great public speaker. Sometimes I think he could have achieved great things if he chose to stay in the States.
Some time later my relationship with the girlfriend fizzled and we stopped seeing each other. But no matter, I was ready to turn a new page in my life.
“And in time everything will become a faint memory, and the grind of daily life will smooth out some of the hard edges.”
Epilogue
For what we witnessed and participated in that unforgettable summer, it always remains a very important chapter in my life. Like the students in China we all pursued lofty ideas that transcended individual self-interests; but unlike the citizens of Beijing we never stared death squarely in the eye. Deprived the chance to test my mettle has sometimes crept into my mind the doubt that ultimately I might just be another coward. The feeble frailty of human existence is an excuse for our cowardice, genetically encoded in our DNA in the name of evolution, the survival of species.
Twenty years have since passed and the cry for justice for all those lost innocent souls have all but been mute. But don’t tell me it’s been all for naught. Eventually, the legacy of June 4th in Beijing shall be recognized as nothing less than awe inspiring and seminal, as evidenced by the domino fall of the Eastern European communist regimes, and even the Russians rejected communism as well. And don’t despair that the butchers have not been brought to justice. History will not judge them kindly and that’s the ultimate punishment. Above all I try to live a productive and happy life, that’s what those people who paid the price with their lives that day would have wanted, to build a brighter and happier future for everybody.
For the overseas democracy movement, it was disappointment no doubt. The infighting, the personal agenda, the recrimination against each other consumed all their energy and eventually battered each other into a bloody pulp. The harsh reality of being uprooted from the natural soil of Chinese society to replenish the nourishment and support has been fatal to their existence, and becoming irrelevant was only a matter of time. Still, credit should be given to them that they are idealistic individuals attempted to do the right thing the best they could. The fact that they didn’t succeed in bringing down the regime in China only makes them flawed but tragic heroes, almost Shakespearean.
The IFCSS was controversial for an entirely different reason. Their tireless noble effort in lobbying the congress bore the fruit that benefited more than 35000 Chinese nationals who could then legally stay in this country. Any grumbling about “blood” card is sour grape and fundamentally ignorant of how American democracy works. My only gripe with them is that they squandered a chance to transform themselves into a full-blown professional lobbying firm, helping taking up issues concerning the welfare of Chinese Americans. As Pelosi meteorically ascended to the House Speaker’s position, with the relationships carefully nurtured for twenty years, they could have become a political force to be reckoned with. Then again, I didn’t like personally going into politics, so I can’t really fault them not wanting to do it as a career either.
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/02/2009
Thanks for the memory. - posted on 06/02/2009
tar wrote:
The Summer of 1989
For the next twenty minutes, I discussed the aspirations, the desire of Chinese people to break out from the bondage of this despotic regime, and the tales of individual bravery and the selfless sacrifices of ordinary Chinese. I ended the speech by recalling the single most courageous defiance of all time, the indelible image tattooed in the collective consciousness of any TV watching audience, that of the young man standing up in front of a column of tanks. A thunderous applause brought down the house.
OMG,we have completely no idea you were the then ambassador of China to US. My salute - sorry, was it Ambassdor to UN or US?
Damn Chinese Government! How dare they make this fabulous Chinese speaker almost speechless in front of his foreign audience in that kind of club.
Inspiring, no, magnificent speech on behalf of the Chinese people all over the world. My tears just raining down when I saw this unbelievable memorial.
This is the post of the week in this small cafe (I apologise sincerely on behalf all here - is this cafe too small for you?) :)
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/02/2009
6.4奠 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/02/2009
Old Fang wrote:
6.4奠
.... that personally I don't think 6.4 needs. :) - posted on 06/02/2009
tar wrote:
The Summer of 1989
At the end of the day I mustered enough courage to ask my pretty colleague whether she wanted to have dinner with me. She said sure. Over the dinner we talked about our lives and our upbringings, although she’s the one doing most of the talking. Obviously she’s very interested in politics – both of her parents are professors in the school. From a very young age they instilled her a sense of civic duty to service. I have to admit at that point I was far more a cynic than she was. Lately though she had grown a great desire to travel. She’d decided to go to grad school in journalism – great way for combining her passion for justice and meeting interesting people. On the latter part, I made a joke that she’d started splendidly but everything would go down hill from there.
We went to see a movie afterwards.
even a riveting story could miserably fall flat without romance;) big prop for tar for sharing the original write.
- posted on 06/02/2009
Honest and fluent. I enjoyed your reminiscences and reflections, Tar, especially this paragraph:
For what we witnessed and participated in that unforgettable summer, it always remains a very important chapter in my life. Like the students in China we all pursued lofty ideas that transcended individual self-interests; but unlike the citizens of Beijing we never stared death squarely in the eye. Deprived the chance to test my mettle has sometimes crept into my mind the doubt that ultimately I might just be another coward. The feeble frailty of human existence is an excuse for our cowardice, genetically encoded in our DNA in the name of evolution, the survival of species.
- posted on 06/02/2009
liaokang wrote:
The feeble frailty of human existence is an excuse for our cowardice, genetically encoded in our DNA in the name of evolution, the survival of species.
I am wondering whether a nation of 林冲s and 武松s can make the most democratic country in the world, or we call it the most chaotic forest in the world. :)
You need to strike an intangible and most of time invisible balance. In reality it proves to be incredibly difficult for Chinese, however in Chinese literature it seems incredibly simple and clear. - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/02/2009
在办公室里分了好几回才读完,overwhelming。
我来咖啡不久,容易判断错误,本以为Tar是个犀利的MM,如同一开始以为gz也是个MM,不过这些都不重要了,呵呵。
除liaokang说的那段,还喜欢你主张武力推翻那段,像中国版的切 格瓦拉。。
另外有句话不知道当讲不当讲,感觉你跟Dou先生并没有敌对性的分歧,freedom of speech shouldn't be differently applied to him either..商榷哈。。
tar wrote:
The Summer of 1989
- posted on 06/02/2009
touche wrote:
Thanks for the memory.
;-)
Old Fang wrote:
6.4奠
Amen!
老瓦 wrote:
even a riveting story could miserably fall flat without romance;) big prop for tar for sharing the original write.
Many possibilities, only one outcome. ;-)
liaokang wrote:
Honest and fluent. I enjoyed your reminiscences and reflections, Tar, especially this paragraph:
Many thanks as always. During the height of the protests me and a friend were talking about going back, but like many other instances not ultimately backed up by actions.
blx wrote:
我来咖啡不久,容易判断错误,本以为Tar是个犀利的MM,如同一开始以为gz也是个MM,不过这些都不重要了,呵呵。
;-)))
除liaokang说的那段,还喜欢你主张武力推翻那段,像中国版的切 格瓦拉。。
年轻气盛,一时的激愤。虽然切给浪漫化了,但是理解你的看法,有点汗颜,too. ;-)
另外有句话不知道当讲不当讲,感觉你跟Dou先生并没有敌对性的分歧,freedom of speech shouldn't be differently applied to him either..商榷哈。。
其实我跟他还是一个战壕里的战友,没大不了的事。要说敌对,我连那村货LHC都不看成是你死我活的敌人啦。(Sorry Maya, I can't resist the temptation. ;-)) - posted on 06/02/2009
old Tar,nice input,my solute。
象令壶冲这样的网络混子,大概是64时候去游行示威的人太多,使他凑不成麻将牌局,所以至今对那场运动耿耿于怀。今天他或者可以说,看见了吧,要是都像我这样在那时候天天摸几圈的,就不会有杀人。他如果这样说,也不是全无道理。
国师就是不自信而已,读了几本书,食洋不化,还想到处显摆,却不知道早已丢了常识。一个人恨一个人(奥巴马)到了那种地步,第一需要宗教的力量,第二可能是嗑药的原因,就像热屎灵宝。自由主义的信徒,到了这步田地,是对自由主义的羞辱。自由主义的极端分子,同伊斯兰教导极端分子没有什么两样。 - posted on 06/02/2009
Thanks.
Yesterday Maya gave me a dress down and I promised her that I'd behave, for a few days at least.
So I will just leave it as is. ;-)
壹 wrote:
old Tar,nice input,my solute。
象令壶冲这样的网络混子,大概是64时候去游行示威的人太多,使他凑不成麻将牌局,所以至今对那场运动耿耿于怀。今天他或者可以说,看见了吧,要是都像我这样在那时候天天摸几圈的,就不会有杀人。他如果这样说,也不是全无道理。
国师就是不自信而已,读了几本书,食洋不化,还想到处显摆,却不知道早已丢了常识。一个人恨一个人(奥巴马)到了那种地步,第一需要宗教的力量,第二可能是嗑药的原因,就像热屎灵宝。自由主义的信徒,到了这步田地,是对自由主义的羞辱。自由主义的极端分子,同伊斯兰教导极端分子没有什么两样。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/03/2009
tar做了很了不起的事情。salute! - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/03/2009
谢Maya,我其实什么也没做,就是跟着别人后面折腾了一下。当时处于激愤,90%的海外华人恐怕都参加过游行示威的。
maya wrote:
tar做了很了不起的事情。salute! - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/04/2009
另外有句话不知道当讲不当讲,感觉你跟Dou先生并没有敌对性的分歧,freedom of speech shouldn't be differently applied to him either..商榷哈。。其实我跟他还是一个战壕里的战友,没大不了的事。
呵呵,我看也是。常言道解铃还须系铃人,那你赶紧出面把dou先生找回来吧。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/04/2009
Very vivid memory, memoir nicely done.
说心里话,我整理那些旧字,也是跟这一贴对应一下。城里的事情,城外的事情,不
同的世界,共通的事情。正好又相会在咖啡,还能用文字表诸于回忆。
我希望今天能有更多人的忆旧,小棣还没完,废名有英文的,廖康不能拿那解放军
一贴当回忆。还有草叶,老虻,笨笨,二老板等等,都应该有些淡淡的记忆。
唉,我又多废话了,看来今天咖啡还要打。Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
- posted on 06/04/2009
xw wrote:
唉,我又多废话了,看来今天咖啡还要打。Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
人两天不扯淡,就能当绅士?:)
这倒又让我想起来过去讽刺幽默报上的一个笑话,小店上方挂优秀服务承诺书:1,不打顾客耳光;2,不往顾客头上吐痰...
我在这里说句实话,tar的帖子实在空洞虚浮得很。第一段就让我哭笑不得。有时候我就奇怪,大家都一把年纪的人了,整么还有情绪搞这一套,好象自己就一天都没有在中国生活过似的。这么大把年纪了,没有真实的感觉,却斤斤计较些毫无必要遣词用语,模范些英文教科书的盛装舞步,学生时代的习惯,自己怎么有可能有一点真正enjoy的感觉呢。:) - posted on 06/04/2009
Well, I never ask anybody to shut up, let alone to leave for good. But I really don't think anybody is indispensable. It's just his temper tantrum to grab the attention he craves.
Look, I am an absolutist when it comes to freedom of speech. It means that anybody has the right to say anything under the sun, as long as it's not liable.
On the other hand it is also my right to criticize opinions that I don't agree with, which includes ridicule as well.
I mostly pick on people who is delusional in thinking he's got all the answers and everybody else is wrong. So even if he comes back, I will treat him exactly the same way. ;-)
blx wrote:
呵呵,我看也是。常言道解铃还须系铃人,那你赶紧出面把dou先生找回来吧。另外有句话不知道当讲不当讲,感觉你跟Dou先生并没有敌对性的分歧,freedom of speech shouldn't be differently applied to him either..商榷哈。。其实我跟他还是一个战壕里的战友,没大不了的事。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/04/2009
I am licking my chops to get in the arena again, but a promise is a promise. Can't wait for it to expire. ;-)
xw wrote:
Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/04/2009
Don't worry, mate. I promise I will rough you up. Everybody has a mission here - my mission here is to help those flying pigs find their landing pad. I will help you unwind the hurt you did to others, in memory of those beloved i.e. st e dou. :) - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/04/2009
因为太长,只好打印出来带回家看,10号字体,三页呢:)
拜读了,学习了。多谢。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
For a few seconds the audience fell to a complete silence when I called for armed struggles against tyranny, fearing a radical militant in their midst.
Interesting. How did this view of yours evolve over the last 20 years? Do you still hold this view? Do you consider the current CCP leadership such a tyranny after Deng's generation is gone? Do you want to overthrow them by means of violence? - posted on 06/05/2009
谢谢Tar bother回复这么详尽。
你对绝对言论自由的追求无可非议,那么e dou是不是也有追求他绝对言论自由的权利呢,即便你认为他那是delusional,你和他都有极端的一面,不是吗?但极端没什么不好,能做到极端也是需要智慧的,但只要不寡头就好,咖啡需要的是多样化的极端,正是因为这样,包括我在内的许多人觉得e dou应该回来。没有人是不可缺少的,但有e dou的咖啡会更有趣。
他之所以离开,并不是你掌握的真理震慑了他,而是跟真理毫无关系的噪音部分让他觉得无趣了。我当然不认为你应该为此事负责任,而是觉得每个来咖啡的人多多少少该对这个坛子负点责任。
我也想告诉你我的真实感受。回去看一遍你对e dou的嘲讽,真的很佩服您说刻薄话的才能。但如果这是针对我,我也会愤怒会屈辱会崩溃,而且我相信还会有别的,那些沉默的咖啡豆们也有可能被你吓着了,更不敢随便说话,他们的自由怎么办?
我先说到这里,你一定不会因为我这番话有什么不妥而有什么触动,这就是你比e dou 彪悍的地方。但还是希望e dou 有一天会回到这个咖啡。更希望有更多的tars和e dous来。
tar wrote:
Well, I never ask anybody to shut up, let alone to leave for good. But I really don't think anybody is indispensable. It's just his temper tantrum to grab the attention he craves.
Look, I am an absolutist when it comes to freedom of speech. It means that anybody has the right to say anything under the sun, as long as it's not liable.
On the other hand it is also my right to criticize opinions that I don't agree with, which includes ridicule as well.
I mostly pick on people who is delusional in thinking he's got all the answers and everybody else is wrong. So even if he comes back, I will treat him exactly the same way. ;-)
blx wrote:
呵呵,我看也是。常言道解铃还须系铃人,那你赶紧出面把dou先生找回来吧。另外有句话不知道当讲不当讲,感觉你跟Dou先生并没有敌对性的分歧,freedom of speech shouldn't be differently applied to him either..商榷哈。。其实我跟他还是一个战壕里的战友,没大不了的事。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
blx说得对极了。。我就觉得这个Tar是我在咖啡绝不敢招惹的人物。
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
好了好了,别装蒜了。你和阿斗的共同之处最多就是有一对睾丸。我看壹先生的诊断很准确。
该不客气绝对不要客气。一客气,网上的狗屁就令人窒息。
tar wrote:
I am licking my chops to get in the arena again, but a promise is a promise. Can't wait for it to expire. ;-)
xw wrote:
Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
tar, thanks for the memoir!
每每看到cafe里的肾上腺亢进时的争论,我都在想要是谁能发明一种机器,将那些能量收集了输入电网,不知世界上还需不需要核电站?(这段走题,对不起。) - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
Tar - I had a transient feeling as though I might even know you. ;-) - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
:))) 打架没什么,men are born to fight. ;-) but, gentlemen‘s fight, 人身攻击不好, regardless true or not.
tar wrote:
I am licking my chops to get in the arena again, but a promise is a promise. Can't wait for it to expire. ;-)
xw wrote:
Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
- posted on 06/05/2009
Without framing these questions in context, I can argue either way.
I can tell you what the "historic perspective" I sprouted at the meeting, in a nutshell. I argued that of all the people who enjoy democracy and freedom now, they all fought for it with violence and blood; that one round of revolution might not be enough to achieve it, comparing the Chinese revolution to French revolution; that the PLA was ripe for mutiny. Does any of these reasoning persuasive enough for you? ;-)
If you ask me now whether I still harbor the view that the CCP regime should be violently overthrown, actually it's an irrelevant question. With the great GDP growth and the elite class in the cities rapidly ascending to dominate the Chinese society notwithstanding, the vast majority of the peasants are not enjoy the economic fruits on whose own back the economy is built. The extreme contrast of the haves and havenots, the poverty vs opulent flaunting of wealth, these are the seeds of instability that can degenerate into violence and revolution. In our history it's the cycle of extreme exploitation leading to revolution, and revolution leading bcak to extreme exploitation. The vicious cycle has not been broken in my opinion.
Lastly, you took all my words literally? ;-) I kinda wrote the piece tongue-in-cheek.
gz wrote:
For a few seconds the audience fell to a complete silence when I called for armed struggles against tyranny, fearing a radical militant in their midst.Interesting. How did this view of yours evolve over the last 20 years? Do you still hold this view? Do you consider the current CCP leadership such a tyranny after Deng's generation is gone? Do you want to overthrow them by means of violence? - posted on 06/05/2009
Well, blx MM, I certainly don't have enough good reasons to counter your arguments. All I can say is, I will think about restraint whenever I could. But I am not to optimistic that I can change my personality easily. Besides, for everyone who's pissed at me, there is a touche who is secretly egging me on. ;-)
For one thing though, I am still a bit chivalrous influenced from all the 19th century romantic crap I read in college. Rest assured I never launch any assault on ladies, not because they are incapable of defending themselves, but usually they don't have the testosterone to incite violent reactions. ;-)
Even for the guys, I only reserve my wrath on a very few. LinHuCHong is an idiot I love to make fun of. ;-)
blx wrote:
谢谢Tar bother回复这么详尽。 - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
稍安勿躁嘛. ;-)
touche wrote:
好了好了,别装蒜了。你和阿斗的共同之处最多就是有一对睾丸。我看壹先生的诊断很准确。
该不客气绝对不要客气。一客气,网上的狗屁就令人窒息。
tar wrote:
I am licking my chops to get in the arena again, but a promise is a promise. Can't wait for it to expire. ;-)
xw wrote:
Tar这两天的风度,绝对绅士!
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
Am I revealing too much? ;-)
八十一子 wrote:
Tar - I had a transient feeling as though I might even know you. ;-) - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
鹿希, rzp, thanks for reading. - Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/05/2009
My friend read this last night and told me he knew tar :-) - posted on 06/05/2009
tar wrote:
Without framing these questions in context, I can argue either way.
I can tell you what the "historic perspective" I sprouted at the meeting, in a nutshell. I argued that of all the people who enjoy democracy and freedom now, they all fought for it with violence and blood; that one round of revolution might not be enough to achieve it, comparing the Chinese revolution to French revolution; that the PLA was ripe for mutiny. Does any of these reasoning persuasive enough for you? ;-)
How about comparing to British democracy which didn't cause too much bloodshed?
But this is beside my point. What I am interested in in general is the views of those who call for the overthrow of the rule of the CCP, either now or 20 years ago. While you thought this was necessary 20 years ago, do you still think so now?
If you ask me now whether I still harbor the view that the CCP regime should be violently overthrown, actually it's an irrelevant question. With the great GDP growth and the elite class in the cities rapidly ascending to dominate the Chinese society notwithstanding, the vast majority of the peasants are not enjoy the economic fruits on whose own back the economy is built. The extreme contrast of the haves and havenots, the poverty vs opulent flaunting of wealth, these are the seeds of instability that can degenerate into violence and revolution. In our history it's the cycle of extreme exploitation leading to revolution, and revolution leading bcak to extreme exploitation. The vicious cycle has not been broken in my opinion.
Hey, don't avoid the question, it seems I have to corner you a little. :-)
I very much want to hear the arguments from those who are for the overthrow of the CCP's rule by violence. So this question is very relevant to me, and to the discussion here. I am familiar with the view that the polarization in China may potentially cause a huge crisis, or even violence. But this is not quite the same as the premeditated and organized armed struggle for the overthrow of the government, as what you called for 20 years ago. Now the question is, again, are you or are you not for this armed struggle 20 years later?
It is precisely this vicious cycle that I have in mind, and you don't seem to want to break it, at least judging from what you wanted 20 years ago. I doubt very much once those who overthrow the CCP by violence are in power, they would give it up the and carry out a free-election, instead of holding on the power for preventing the CCP followers from taking back the power again. And that would be a new round of this vicious cycle all over again! All violent revolutions start with beautiful ideals but they don't all end up with beautiful reality. We should all remember "Oh Liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name."
Some people seem to think they have the solutions to China's problems. But I am afraid many of them may be part of the problems.
Lastly, you took all my words literally? ;-) I kinda wrote the piece tongue-in-cheek.
why not. I think you wrote this piece pretty seriously, at least the way it sounds.
- Re: The Summer of 1989posted on 06/06/2009
Ohoh, 全曝光了就不好玩了。Hope your friend is not the one that I had the tiff with in the bathhouse.
;-)
July wrote:
My friend read this last night and told me he knew tar :-) - posted on 06/06/2009
Even the English, the Magna Carta was shoved down the throat of John of England when his castle was besieged by the noblemen who revolted against his Tax policies. There was never a real peaceful transition from tyranny to rule of law. And it also takes the beheading of another king for it to really become undisputed law of the land.
Incidentally, the Magna Carta also established the common law tradition that limits the state rather than individual rights. That sets the English and subsequently the Americans differently compare to the rest of the European continent.
Now specifically if you want to pin me down on what my opinion is in regarding to violent overthrowing of the CCP regime, my answer is still, it depends on the context.
First of all, after twenty years we still have this threat of spontaneous uprising because of the extreme inequality in the country, then I certainly would not apologize for calling a quick painless uprising right after 64, given that a lot of amry commanders were actually sympathetic to the protesters. There is no proof it would have led to chaos and misery necessarily.
At this very moment if you ask me if I am in favor of armed insurgency against the current regime, the answer is no. But if in a few years when a spontaneuos combustion ignites and the whole country goes down in flame, I'd say my current view is wrong.
gz wrote:
tar wrote:How about comparing to British democracy which didn't cause too much bloodshed?
Without framing these questions in context, I can argue either way.
I can tell you what the "historic perspective" I sprouted at the meeting, in a nutshell. I argued that of all the people who enjoy democracy and freedom now, they all fought for it with violence and blood; that one round of revolution might not be enough to achieve it, comparing the Chinese revolution to French revolution; that the PLA was ripe for mutiny. Does any of these reasoning persuasive enough for you? ;-)
But this is beside my point. What I am interested in in general is the views of those who call for the overthrow of the rule of the CCP, either now or 20 years ago. While you thought this was necessary 20 years ago, do you still think so now?
If you ask me now whether I still harbor the view that the CCP regime should be violently overthrown, actually it's an irrelevant question. With the great GDP growth and the elite class in the cities rapidly ascending to dominate the Chinese society notwithstanding, the vast majority of the peasants are not enjoy the economic fruits on whose own back the economy is built. The extreme contrast of the haves and havenots, the poverty vs opulent flaunting of wealth, these are the seeds of instability that can degenerate into violence and revolution. In our history it's the cycle of extreme exploitation leading to revolution, and revolution leading bcak to extreme exploitation. The vicious cycle has not been broken in my opinion.Hey, don't avoid the question, it seems I have to corner you a little. :-)
I very much want to hear the arguments from those who are for the overthrow of the CCP's rule by violence. So this question is very relevant to me, and to the discussion here. I am familiar with the view that the polarization in China may potentially cause a huge crisis, or even violence. But this is not quite the same as the premeditated and organized armed struggle for the overthrow of the government, as what you called for 20 years ago. Now the question is, again, are you or are you for this armed struggle 20 years later?
It is exactly this vicious cycle that I have in mind, and you don't seem to want to break it, at least judging from what you wanted 20 years ago. I doubt very much once those who overthrow the CCP by violence are in power, they would give up the power and carry out a free-election, instead of holding on the power for preventing the CCP followers from taking back the power again. And that would be a new round of this vicious cycle all over again!
Lastly, you took all my words literally? ;-) I kinda wrote the piece tongue-in-cheek.why not. I think you wrote this piece pretty seriously, at least the way it sounds.
- posted on 06/06/2009
tar wrote:
Now specifically if you want to pin me down on what my opinion is in regarding to violent overthrowing of the CCP regime, my answer is still, it depends on the context.
First of all, after twenty years we still have this threat of spontaneous uprising because of the extreme inequality in the country, then I certainly would not apologize for calling a quick painless uprising right after 64, given that a lot of amry commanders were actually sympathetic to the protesters. There is no proof it would have led to chaos and misery necessarily.
Given that it would be possible to have a "quick painless" uprising, AND, given that it would lead to real democracy instead of decades of chaos, most of us would agree with you. But don't you think there is just way too much of such "given"?
There is no proof such a uprising would not have led to a civil war, about which many did worry back then.
At this very moment if you ask me if I am in favor of armed insurgency against the current regime, the answer is no. But if in a few years when a spontaneuos combustion ignites and the whole country goes down in flame, I'd say my current view is wrong.
The problem is, as always, how can your armed struggle distinguish between the regime and the people? Logically they are two different concepts but realistically they cannot be separated when it comes to an armed struggle.
More importantly, in what name would you carry out this "armed insurgency"? The spirit of democracy is majority rule and rule of law. When the CCP is accused of ruling without any legitimacy, how can those who are in favor of carrying out an armed insurgency justify their own act of violence and killing? Do they represent the majority of the people? Is what they do any more legitimate than how the CCP took over the power? Isn't it an irony and logical fallacy to carry out such violence in the name of democracy?
Luckily those who are for such an armed struggle are mostly just a bunch of 书生, without any real means to carry it out. Whatever they say won't do much harm anyway. :-)
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