一直想好好整理一下,拿去找人发表的。是两年前,我跟一个朋友(i.e. 天才)每天任意挑一章,各自写自己的译文,然后发表在我的博客里。我们都不是直接翻译,而是根据原文写当时的理解,尽量用当代的文字来表达,所以很多篇章都是跟当天的心情,国际时事,看的书,讨论的话题有关的。后来我的朋友被人揭发了,说他寄给我的译文都是另外一个人写的。无论如何,我还是感激那个朋友把别人的译文寄给我,给我灵感。当时我参考的是孙雍长的中文译文(花城出版社,以前回国随便在商店里买的,不知权威性如何),以及 Feng and English 的“标准”英文译文。
博客:http://jorielle-tao.blogspot.com/
今天先贴一篇两年前写的。这里我就不贴 Feng and English 以及我朋友盗版的了。
是把中文英文穿插写好,还是中文一段,英文一段?
====
August 9, 2004
老子道德經第五章
天地不仁 以萬物為芻狗
聖人不仁 以百姓為芻狗
天地之間 其猶橐龠乎
虛而不屈 動而愈出
多言數窮 不如守中
The nature has nothing to do with love;
Everything is just an abstraction.
The wise men don't talk about love either;
They see everyone as equals, detachedly.
Sometimes I think of the bellows--
when it holds still it is full of air,
the more it moves the more it exhausts itself,
To keep my life smooth, long and full,
I shall talk less, and be still.
====
OK, I shall talk less, and be still. :)
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/10/2006
阿姗,我喜欢你的译本,更明白易懂。要不,每天一节,先是中文,再是英文?让我们受受教育:-))把对古中国的怀念进行到底:-))这比我的青瓷瓦块碎布头的重要多了:)) - posted on 08/10/2006
Is this translation?
Suppose I translate Confucius' like this:
15] 衛靈公第十五
[15.1]
衛靈公問陳於孔子。孔子對曰:「俎豆之事,則嘗聞之矣;軍旅之事,未之學也。」明日遂行。
The King of Wei asked Confucius about the state of Chen. Said the master:" I know how to worship but not how to war," and he left the place the following day.
[15.2]
在陳絕糧。從者病,莫能興。子路慍見曰:「君子亦有窮乎?」子曰:「君子固窮;小人斯濫矣。」
The master and his diciples had no food in the State of Chen and all his followers were sick and could do nothing. Zilu was very angry, saying:"how come we holy men can starve?" The master said:" A holy man may suffer but still stick to the true word but an unholy man cannnot."
[15.3]
子曰:「賜也,女以予為多學而識之者與?」對曰:「然,非與?」曰:「非也!予一以貫之。」
The Master said to Ci:" Do you think I am a man of lots of knowledge and wisdom?" Ci said:" yeah, why not?". Said the Master:" No I am not. I only stick to one truth."
[15.4]
子曰:「由,知德者鮮矣!」
The Master said to You:" Rare are nowadays people who know virture."
[15.5]
子曰:「無為而治者,其舜也與!夫何為哉?恭己正南面而已矣。」
The Master said:" He that ruled well without much fuss was none other than Shun. What did he do? He disciplined himself and sat on his throne and that's it."
不行,还是没有阿珊能够发挥想象力。 - posted on 08/10/2006
好,我们比较一下另外两个“译本”。Feng and English 可能算是 definitive 的英译本,力从一字一句的精确翻译。
Heaven and earth are ruthless;
They see the ten thousand things as dummies.
The wise are ruthless;
They see the people as dummies.
The space between heaven and earth is like a bellows.
The shape changes but not the form;
The more it moves, the more it yields.
More words count less.
Hold fast to the center.
朋友寄给我的是另一种 interpolation (not translation):
Tao's neutral:
it doesn't worry about good or evil.
The Masters are neutral:
they treat everyone the same.
Lao Tzu said Tao is like a bellows:
It's empty,
but it could help set the world on fire.
If you keep using Tao, it works better.
If you keep talking about it,
it won't make any sense.
Be cool.
====
可以看出几个版本的不同。
方老师的孔子应该算是翻译(translation)。我想,因为我读的是老子,本身就是很虚的,很要靠各人的悟解,所以可以被改写的面目全非,而本质却不变。这就是道的本义啊!孔子的教诲很实在,只能一字一句的翻译了。
另外,两年前我正是在悟道的时候,想象力和创造力都超强。现在是怎么也写不出那样的文字来了。只好当成别人写的,重新学习一番古中国的智慧。
方壶斋 wrote:
Is this translation? - Re: 道德经,阿姗版,71posted on 08/10/2006
August 9, 2004
老子道德經第七十一章
知不知 上
不知知 病
夫唯病病 是以不病
聖人不病 以其病病 是以不病
He who knows he does not know everything is wise.
He who does not know what he knows is in trouble.
Since I want to be wise, I try to avoid trouble,
i.e. I know what I know and what I don't know.
- posted on 08/11/2006
where is 芻狗? I cannot see 芻狗 in any of the translation.
if nobody mentions it's from Tao-Te-Ching, I would think those
are poems from some guys.
as I understand, 芻狗 is little dog, puppy or doggie ?
Ah-shan extended too far...
i love those images in chinese classicals, especially chang-zhi.
&&
fang's translation of Confucius is quite clear, quite plain.
My Analects book translations are:
XV.I
When Duke Ling of Wei asked Confucius about military tactics, Confucius
replied: "With the appurtenances of worship I have indeed an acquaintance,
but as to military matters I have never studied them." Next day he
straightway took his departure.
XV.II
On the way in Chen their supplies failed, and his followers were so
ill that they could not stand. Tzu Lu with some irritation sought an
interview and said: "Does a man of the higher order also ahve to suffer
want?" "The superior man bears want unshaken," replied the Master,
"the inferior man in want becomes demoralized."
XV.III
"Tzu," said the Master, "You regard me as a man of multifarious study
who retains all in mind, eh?" "yes" answered he; "but maybe it is not
so?" "No," was the reply, "I have one principle connecting all."
XV.IV
"Yu," said the Master, "There are few who understand virtue."
XV.V
The Master said: "May not Shun be instanced as one who made no effort,
yet the empire was well governed? For what effort did he make? Ordering
himself in all seriousness, he did nothing but maintain the correct
imperial attitude."
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
阿姗,谢了。真好!坚持下去啊!这样才能把玛雅咖啡的质量提高,我认为网络文学根本地改变了那种传统的文学模式,每个人都可以参与。但是,只有执著地耕耘,才会有真正的收获。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
翻译是另一类创造。有时,如果太直译,侧需要加许多注释才能使读者明白。就说今天八十一字的《〈音乐之声〉》吧,不同的国家就有不同的译法。翻译的时候,你心目中的读者很重要。如果是纯学术的,当然越精确越好,可是那并不是唯一的译法。就像中国的很多译片:《巫山云》,《翠堤春晓》,《魂断蓝桥》,你能说译得不好?。。。。。。 - posted on 08/11/2006
xw wrote:
where is 芻狗? I cannot see 芻狗 in any of the translation.
给自己辩护一下。
我这不是在翻译。道德经不是一定要很玄的,让人觉得高不可攀,望而止步的。老子用当时的语言和习惯,来写他对宇宙的感悟。我是想以他的思想作为起点,以他的格式作为骨架,用自己的语言和习惯,来写我自己对宇宙的相应的感悟,希望能跟现代人沟通。
芻狗,用草编扎成狗的形状,古代祭祀时所用。用时并非出于珍爱,用后即弃也并非出于憎厌,故用来比喻天地、圣人之于万物、百姓的任其自然。
现代人想象力不足,不是所有人都能从芻狗联想到图像,继而了解其含义的。这个芻狗,翻译成中文后也需要再解释含义,然后再翻译成英文....现代人喜欢直接了当,你看好莱坞的电影。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
July wrote:
阿姗,谢了。真好!坚持下去啊!这样才能把玛雅咖啡的质量提高,我认为网络文学根本地改变了那种传统的文学模式,每个人都可以参与。但是,只有执著地耕耘,才会有真正的收获。
谢谢鼓励。一起执著地耕耘吧。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
应该说阿姗翻译得还是很准确的。不比很多欧美汉学家差。这样的白话版适合普通读者。高级读者可以去读逐字翻译的verbatim translation. - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
令人想起:)
知其雄,守其雌——知道公的,守住母的。
也是一家之言。 - posted on 08/11/2006
“善建者不拔”——“搞建筑的人,其建筑不容易损坏”;
“使民重死而不远徙”——“这样即使百姓受重刑而死,也不愿离去”;
“如享太牢”——“(心里)实际像坐大牢一样的痛苦”;
“我愚人之心也哉”——“用我的愚昧去满足人民的心愿”;
“无为而无不为”——“开始什么都不会,炼到后来什么都会”;
“自伐者无功”——“自己砍伐的没有功”;
“其政闷闷,其民淳淳”——“掌权的闷闷不乐,人民喝得酩酊大醉”;
“复归于婴儿”——“归根结底是传宗接代”;
“为天下谷”——“这就是天下的稻谷”;
“智慧出,有大伪”——“知识太突出,大家都虚伪”; - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/11/2006
方壶斋 wrote:
我想用NIV版圣经的语言翻译论语, 看看有没有基督的味道, 哈。
就是这个意思。我的道德经基本是用我所知甚少的 New Age 的语言写的。 - posted on 08/11/2006
August 11, 2004
老子道德經第七十七章
天之道 其猶張弓歟
高者抑之 下者舉之
有餘者損之 不足者補之
天之道 損有餘而補不足
人之道 則不然
損不足以奉有餘
孰能有餘以奉天下
唯有道者
是以聖人為而不恃
功成而不處
其不欲見賢
The way of nature is as simple as the operation of a bow:
When the aim is too high, lower it; when low, raise it.
When the string is too tight, loosen it; when loose, tighten it.
The way of nature is to smooth and even things out, i.e. negative feedback;
The way of man is to elaborate and exaggerate, i.e. positive feedback.
However, no one can create things from nothing continually.
Therefore the wise man follows the way of nature.
He acts and succeeds, but dwells not on his acts and success.
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/12/2006
先对阿姗的老子演绎作一声鼓励!
再问一个问题:不知阿姗的“刍狗”何方解得。我这里王弼注经中似
有些“刍”与“狗”的意思的:
天地任自然无为无造万物自相治理故不仁也仁者必造立施化有恩有为
造立施化则物失其真有恩有为则物不具存物不具存则不足以备载矣地
不为兽生刍而兽食刍不为人生狗而人食狗无为于万物而万物各适其所
用则莫不瞻矣若慧由已树未足任也
方的论语去网页不见,再贴过来吧。
望阿姗与老方再贴,很好的学习与交流。
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/12/2006
同意xw. 刍指草,狗指动物,‘刍狗’泛指自生自灭的植物和动物。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/12/2006
天之道 其猶張弓歟
高者抑之 下者舉之
The way of nature is as simple as the operation of a bow:
When the aim is too high, lower it; when low, raise it.
这两句似乎有问题。是否应当是:
The way of nature is as simple as the operation of a bow:
When the target is high above, pull the string down; when down below, up. - posted on 08/12/2006
昨天下午,从德州回芝加哥,带了一本Adam Zagajewski 诗集在飞机上读。顺手一翻,正是这首:
TREATISE ON EMPTINESS
In a bookstore I accidentally ended up at the section on Tao, or
more precisely, by the Treatise on Emptiness.
I rejoiced, since that day I was perfectly empty.
What an unexpected meeting --- the patient finds the doctor,
The doctor doesn’t speak.
顺便说一句:Adam Zagajewski 是我最近发现的一个当代波兰诗人。如果有人知道,可以写几个关于他的字吗?
- posted on 08/12/2006
阿姗 wrote:
好,我们比较一下另外两个“译本”。Feng and English 可能算是 definitive 的英译本,
Heaven and earth are ruthless;
They see the ten thousand things as dummies.
The wise are ruthless;
They see the people as dummies.
更喜欢阿姗的译文。我觉着道德经一字一句的翻倒容易失了真谛了。刍狗是 dummy,可这样一译,完全失了它的意义。就算是清楚地译出草扎的祭祀用狗,不加解释,也不明白是怎么回事。刍狗只是一种比喻,正如阿姗说,那时的人能明白,现在的人就难。这句的关键不是刍狗的形象,而是不仁。好,那么把不仁译成 ruthless 是否合适呢?我觉着也不合适,因为 ruthless 有人的 判断在里面。而“天地不仁”正是说自然不做判断,以无情对万物,结果是真正的平等,是最大的有情。不过这又是我的解释了(加了我的判断)。再读一遍 Feng and English 的译文,发现他译的和我理解的根本是两码事,也许本没有对错,只有不同。
- posted on 08/12/2006
八十一子 wrote:
天之道 其猶張弓歟这两句似乎有问题。是否应当是:
高者抑之 下者舉之
The way of nature is as simple as the operation of a bow:
When the aim is too high, lower it; when low, raise it.
The way of nature is as simple as the operation of a bow:
When the target is high above, pull the string down; when down below, up.
意思是一样的。自然规律就如拉弓射箭。弓箭举高了就压低点儿,举低了就抬高点儿。。。 When your aim is too high, lower it; when your aim is too low, raise it.
相比之下,target 是定住的 object,这里我想用一个更加 active 的字来形容“举弓”的动作,所以就选了 aim (the pointing of a weapon at a mark; Websters New Collegiate Dictionary) - posted on 08/12/2006
July wrote:
昨天下午,从德州回芝加哥,带了一本Adam Zagajewski 诗集在飞机上读。顺手一翻,正是这首:
TREATISE ON EMPTINESS
In a bookstore I accidentally ended up at the section on Tao, or
more precisely, by the Treatise on Emptiness.
I rejoiced, since that day I was perfectly empty.
What an unexpected meeting --- the patient finds the doctor,
The doctor doesn’t speak.
不知道 Adam Zagajewski。这首诗好玩。
以前我一个朋友老是嘲笑我跟一个道友的对话,说我们俩在一起肯定没什么话好说的,因为一说就错,越说越错,只好面面相觑。
- posted on 08/12/2006
浮生 wrote:
更喜欢阿姗的译文。我觉着道德经一字一句的翻倒容易失了真谛了。刍狗是 dummy,可这样一译,完全失了它的意义。就算是清楚地译出草扎的祭祀用狗,不加解释,也不明白是怎么回事。刍狗只是一种比喻,正如阿姗说,那时的人能明白,现在的人就难。这句的关键不是刍狗的形象,而是不仁。好,那么把不仁译成 ruthless 是否合适呢?我觉着也不合适,因为 ruthless 有人的 判断在里面。而“天地不仁”正是说自然不做判断,以无情对万物,结果是真正的平等,是最大的有情。不过这又是我的解释了(加了我的判断)。再读一遍 Feng and English 的译文,发现他译的和我理解的根本是两码事,也许本没有对错,只有不同。
对啊,浮生MM帮我解释得真清楚。谢谢!不仁理解成 ruthless,也太严重了。 - posted on 08/12/2006
今天的这篇比较不同。两年前的今天,正好翻到《道德经》最后一章。当天我在看 Douglas Adams 的 Hitchhiker 小说,其中一段话和这第81章前半节遥相呼应(根据我自己的理解),而且很好笑。我就抄了那段话,寄给我朋友,做为我对81章的“补充”。这里顺便把 Feng and English 的抄来参考。
====
August 12, 2004
老子道德經第八十一章
信言不美 美言不信
善者不辯 辯者不善
知者不博 博者不知
聖人不積
既以為人己愈有
既以與人己愈多
天之道 利而不害
聖人之道 為而不爭
81 (Feng and English)
Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know.
The sage never tries to store things up.
The more he does for others, the more he has.
The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.
The Tao of heaven is pointed but does not harm.
The Tao of the sage is work without effort.
81 (Douglas Adams)
When the editors of the Guide were sued by the families of those who had died as a result of taking the entry on the planet Traal literally (it said "Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts often make a very good meal for visiting tourists" instead of "Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts often make a very good meal of visiting tourists"), they claimed that the first version of the sentence was the more aesthetically pleasing, summoned a qualified poet to testify under oath that beauty was truth, truth beauty and hoped thereby to prove that the guilty party in this case was Life itself for failing to be either beautiful or true. The judges concurred, and in a moving speech held that Life itself was in contempt of court, and duly confiscated it from all those there present before going off to enjoy a pleasant evening's ultragolf.
-- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版 81posted on 08/12/2006
呵呵,想起去年的电影 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,好看又好笑。今天脑子里怎么全是电影? - Re: 道德经,阿姗版 81posted on 08/12/2006
善者不辯 辯者不善
81 (Feng and English)
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
想问一问,这里的“善”是否“亲切、友善”之意,译为 friendly 呢? - Re: 道德经,阿姗版 81posted on 08/12/2006
aeuglein wrote:
善者不辯 辯者不善想问一问,这里的“善”是否“亲切、友善”之意,译为 friendly 呢?
81 (Feng and English)
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
我的中文书解释是,善者是淳朴厚道的人,或是得道的人。猜想不应该是友善,这个意思好象后来才有的。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版 81posted on 08/12/2006
谢谢阿姗解释。 - Re: 道德经,阿姗版posted on 08/12/2006
回八十一子,
我是想到庄子齐物论中名句:
民食刍豢,麋鹿食荐,螂蛆甘带,鸱鸦耆鼠,四者孰知正味?
这个比老子更明确。 - posted on 08/13/2006
记得有一次,我在书店里读到有关“道”的英译本。关于“太极生两仪,两仪生四象”翻译成“one comes two, and two comes four”。我当时不禁莞尔。现在也常拿这个做例子和朋友们聊中西文化之间的差异。
这差异在于“道”在中国文化里是泰斗,是天道的意思,是玄而又玄的宇宙之谜。而在西方文化,其基础是逻辑。比如在中文里“太极”也可以说是“无极”,是“无限”。这一个词,可以是“无限”,也可以是“一”。从英文来译,也许应该是:
The infinite is also the one, for the all. From the one, two ways can be coming out, and then from two ways, four differences can be appearing.
也许这样翻译,也是不能完全涵括原义。因为我也不能确知。而对于英文,我水平不够,只觉得很有逻辑。逻辑与中国的玄学有契合吗?
- posted on 08/13/2006
梦冉 wrote:
记得有一次,我在书店里读到有关“道”的英译本。关于“太极生两仪,两仪生四象”翻译成“one comes two, and two comes four”。我当时不禁莞尔。现在也常拿这个做例子和朋友们聊中西文化之间的差异。
这差异在于“道”在中国文化里是泰斗,是天道的意思,是玄而又玄的宇宙之谜。而在西方文化,其基础是逻辑。比如在中文里“太极”也可以说是“无极”,是“无限”。这一个词,可以是“无限”,也可以是“一”。从英文来译,也许应该是:
The infinite is also the one, for the all. From the one, two ways can be coming out, and then from two ways, four differences can be appearing.
也许这样翻译,也是不能完全涵括原义。因为我也不能确知。而对于英文,我水平不够,只觉得很有逻辑。逻辑与中国的玄学有契合吗?
道德经里没有“太极生两仪,两仪生四象”的字句。你看的英文翻译也许是道德经42章?这章是我最早读的章节之一。顺便贴来。
我把一说成“宇宙”,二说成“阴阳”,三说成“天地人”,但这只是一种我觉得比较酷的解释方法,远不是唯一的。这些数字,包括两仪,四象,都是打比方(metaphor),是道者看宇宙的一种方式。有的人就很能明白 one comes two, two comes four 的涵义。但多数人,只会看字面意思,如果这样翻译就会误导他们。所以有时要说的明显一点。
====
November 18, 2004
老子道德經第四十二章
道生一 一生二
二生三 三生萬物
萬物負陰而抱陽 沖氣以為和
人之所惡 唯孤 寡 不穀
而王公以為稱
故物或損之而益 或益之而損
人之所教 我亦教之
強梁者不得其死 吾將以為教父
====
阿姗版:
In the beginning there is Universe.
Universe divides itself into yin and yang.
From there comes heaven, earth, and man.
Then all things come to being.
Immersed in yin and ying, all things are in harmony.
People hate humble words,
But they use them on themselves.
This is because one gains by losing,
And loses by gaining.
What everyone teaches, I also teach:
"A violent man will die a violent death."
And this is the first of my teaching.
====
(Feng and English)
The Tao begot one.
One begot two.
Two begot three.
And three begot the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace yang.
They achieve harmony by combining there forces.
Men hate to be "orphaned,", "widowed," or "worthless,"
But this is how kings and lords describe themselves.
For one gains by losing
And loses by gaining.
What others teach, I also teach; that is:
"A violent man will die a violent death!"
This will be the essence of my teaching. - posted on 08/13/2006
The infinite is also the one, for the all. From the one, two ways can >be coming out, and then from two ways, four differences can be >appearing.
我觉得梦冉译得很好,有语言格式的变换。
另外,这是一句常解“道”的语言,不出于老子,必出于什么地方。
二生三
至于一、二、三有原初语言的指代味,上回与浮生讨论一神教提到一
些,而这里的二生三,更象是有关生物雌雄生演子嗣的事。
很好的东西,阿姗很好的一线!
- Re: 道德经,阿姗版 42posted on 08/13/2006
xw wrote:
The infinite is also the one, for the all. From the one, two ways can >be coming out, and then from two ways, four differences can be >appearing.我觉得梦冉译得很好,有语言格式的变换。
另外,这是一句常解“道”的语言,不出于老子,必出于什么地方。
易经? - Re: 道德经,阿姗版 42posted on 08/13/2006
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