男女生而平等和女子入室为安
——小议伊斯兰教的妇女观
八十一子
有个女同事要回伊朗了，特地到我的办公室来道别。她说，真的很感谢我这两年给她在工作上提供的方便，还请我要是有机会到德黑兰去，一定要到她家做客。她还笑说，可惜我不能跟你握手。她离去时，我看着她罩住头发和耳朵的头巾，突然想到有天上班路上在美国公共无线电台上听到的一个美国穆斯林女记者讲的故事，说她在麦加朝圣时，正要快步抢在男人前头，被一个老年妇女拉住；那位老妇告诫这位美国记者，妇女的位置不在前面。这位记者说，她为自己的姐妹悲哀。我听了这个故事，却为这位记者略感悲哀。她是一位穆斯林，但她的话似乎反映着西方社会对穆斯林社会的某些偏见。目前我们美国人掌握着中东的命运。可是，从普通百姓到政治家，我们对穆斯林世界，尤其是穆斯林的妇女地位，究竟了解多少呢？
西方社会的妇女地位在过去的大半个世纪里有了长足的进步，比如在普遍接受教育、进入社会参加劳工队伍、获得经济自主权、选举权等方面。反观一些穆斯林社会，妇女却“被限制”在家里，扮演着传统的“家庭妇女”的角色。穆斯林妇女的头巾、面纱和斗篷在普通西方人眼中也是典型的异己文化的象征。看到穆斯林妇女仔细地罩住自己的头部、面部、或者用长袍遮住全身的曲线时，我们就想，她们竟然无权公开展示自己的美貌。更何况，穆斯林还有一夫多妻制。妇女完全处于从属的地位，我们叹道。当我们派兵到阿富汗和伊拉克时，很多善良的美国民众也一定希望能借此解救那里的妇女于倒悬。
我们很多人对穆斯林世界的印象无可否认地来自好来坞电影。我们也知道这些印象常常跟事实多少有些出入。在西方基督教文明占主导地位的今天，很多人即便不是基督徒也对基督教有点起码的了解，但对伊斯兰教和穆斯林世界却基本无知。比如我就曾认为，伊斯兰教是从犹太教和基督教“衍生”而来，“大概”没有什么新鲜内容。其实不然。笔者既不是耶稣的子民，也不是穆罕默德的追随者，更不属于“被上帝选择的人”，但在我看来，伊斯兰教的许多教义虽然明显地受到犹太教和基督教的影响，但“平等”二字是伊斯兰教的精髓。仅就妇女的地位而言，伊斯兰教和犹太－基督教的妇女观不可同日而语。
西方社会的女权运动追求的首要目标是男女平等，原因自然是男女不平等的现实。究其根源，犹太－基督教的教义难辞其过。就拿上帝造人来说吧，《旧约》说，上帝按他自己的模样造出一个男子亚当，再用亚当的一条肋骨造了一个女子夏娃。而《古兰经》却在几处强调，上帝从“同一个灵魂”里造了亚当和夏娃，“我造出你们，让你们自己配对”，“你的配偶跟你本质相同；你通过你的配偶得到子孙后代”。再看“原罪”的概念。《旧约》把人类的第一个错误归罪于女子，是夏娃听信了蛇的话，教唆亚当偷食了智慧之果。而在《古兰经》里，是亚当和夏娃两人“同时”受到了撒旦的诱惑，同时偷食禁果，同罪被罚。可以说，男女生而平等是伊斯兰教的根本教义之一，是穆斯林妇女的天赋之权。
正如汉字的“安”字所表述， “女子入室为安”。或许可以说，男人结婚是为了自己喜欢的女人，女人结婚却是为了有自己的家。在穆斯林社会中，妇女以家为主。在穆斯林的家庭里，母亲是最受尊崇的人。穆罕默德有句名言： “天堂（Ｐａｒａｄｉｓｅ）就在母亲脚下”。由于妇女需要持家和养育子女，她们可不参加周五在清真寺的礼拜，也没有义务一生必得到麦加朝圣至少一次，斋戒和每天五次的祈祷也可以根据月经、怀孕、哺乳等情形而免除。当我们看到清真寺里几乎全是男子，而零星的妇女们似乎总是跟在男人后面或是在分开的角落时，我们就想，哦，她们竟然在做礼拜时也这样地被歧视。可是，当我们了解到穆斯林妇女既有做礼拜和朝圣的权利，又有不做礼拜不朝圣的特权时，才知道我们的愤愤不平是多么没有根据。既然女子无需常规地参加礼拜，把礼拜场所让给男人们，岂不合情合理？
穆罕默德还有一句话现在看来颇可商酌：“由女人来领导的人们是不会富裕发达的”。穆斯林的妇女不被鼓励去做政府或军队的首脑，因为阿拉伯人认为女子情绪容易波动，重大决策如果受情绪影响会有灾难性后果。女子因此被鼓励从事“相应的”职业，如教育，医疗等。但实际上，从大马士革到安卡拉，从开罗到雅加达，穆斯林的生活方式千差万别。在经济和文化比较发达的穆斯林国家，妇女走出家门，在社会各界扮演着重要角色。例如，女性议员的比例在土尔其、埃及、约旦和黎巴嫩的国会里逐渐增多，摩洛哥的国会女议员约占２５％，连伊朗２７０人的国会里也有九名女性。相比较，目前美国５００人的国会两院目前共有７７名女性议员，约为１５％。印度尼西亚、巴基斯坦、土耳其和孟加拉都有当代女性国家元首。
那么，没有外出参加劳工队伍是不是意味着没有经济自主权呢？我们知道，在西方，女子获得经济自主权是很近代的事。直到十九世纪初，英国的妇女在结婚时还必须把财产交给丈夫。相比之下，穆斯林女子却从古至今一直享有财产权。根据伊斯兰法，女人的财产无论是从继承、劳作、馈赠、聘礼、陪嫁而来，都全部属于女人自己，任何人无权剥夺。逊尼派穆斯林妇女在继承财产时只得到相应于同等地位的男子的一半。这一点常常被人作为男女不平等的例证。不过，因为穆斯林男子的责任是养家，男子分得的财产必须用于家务，而女子分得的财产却全部属于自己，她们没有任何责任把自己的财产用来养家。
伊斯兰教的一夫多妻制每每为基督教徒所诟病。但是很多穆斯林辩解说，一夫多妻在穆斯林社会与其说是常规，不如说是例外。在伊斯兰教产生的年代，一千几百年前的阿拉伯沙漠里，没有家的妇女和儿童可以被任何人掠去卖为奴隶。收留寡妇因此成为习俗。据传，是穆罕默德的妻子劝说他收留了几位阵亡将士的妻室，使她们不至于流离失所，开了伊斯兰教多妻制的先例。穆斯林的男子可以同时娶一到四个妻子。但是，《古兰经》明确指出，除非你能公平对待你的妻子们，否则最好只娶一位。细究起来，穆斯林女子在婚姻上一直享有西方妇女在现代才争得的一些权利。比如说，她们不但有权拒绝跟自己不喜欢的男人结婚，还可以在婚约中列出“休夫”的条件，如丈夫再娶等等。穆斯林的男女都可以提出离婚。离婚后，男方必须保证女方的基本生活。
穆斯林妇女的头巾、面纱和斗篷在普通西方人眼中是典型的异己文化的象征。面纱作为服饰据说已有４０００多年的历史。拜占廷和波斯的上层妇女就曾在公共场所用佩带面纱、蒙面、甚至蒙住全身来象征高高在上的社会地位，而下层的妇女因为劳作的需要，服装限制反倒少。近代欧洲上流社会的妇女也喜欢佩带面纱。西亚北非妇女蒙面习俗的缘起有很多解释，例如波斯的拜火教认为口鼻是保存“火种”的地方，以及阿拉伯的风沙烈日等。现代社会西风东渐的结果，受了高等教育的穆斯林妇女的服饰一度西化。但在最近二、三十年，由女大学生掀起的穆斯林妇女解放运动与西方背道而驰，在服饰上回归简朴和保守，以象征对精神生活的注重和对西方物质文明的抵制。她们认为，在公共场所把身体展示给男人欣赏，恰恰体现了男女地位的不平等，而将自己的身体遮挡，可以使妇女获得更多的隐私和自尊。
西方舆论界常常把一些特例，比如阿富汗的女童失去了受教育的权利，作为穆斯林文化“落后”的证据。其实，使得妇女失去受教育权的原因是贫穷。当教育资源极其有限时，被用在对男孩的教育上，完全是因为男子有养家的责任，因而更需具备一定的谋生能力。任何一个贫穷的社会，例如中国和印度的贫穷地区，都有这个特征。光说阿富汗，闭口不谈经济较为发达的穆斯林社会的妇女普遍接受初等甚至高度教育的情况，显然是会造成偏见的。要知道，伊斯兰教创教之初不仅禁止了贫瘠的阿拉伯社会当时流行的杀害女婴的作法，《古兰经》还许诺说，送两个女儿读书的穆斯林将会和上帝并肩进入天国。
一度灿烂辉煌的伊斯兰文明目前处于历史低谷，在西方基督教文明强大的进取优势面前进退维谷。在这样一个时期，伊斯兰教各个派别对教义常常做偏颇的解释，更有伊斯兰主义兴起并以恐怖主义为武器与西方对抗。世界大同看来尚有时日。但是，一种文化并不比另一种文化处处更为优越。伊斯兰教的妇女观从根本上赋予妇女与男人完全相等的地位，并在实践上把妇女和家庭放在重要位置，是颇具真知灼见的。
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍦ㄥ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/27/2005
老八，这文章好极了！ 是我早就想写而偷懒没写的。太感谢，说出了我早就想说的话。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍦ㄥ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/27/2005
谢谢玛雅。你知道吗，穆罕默德的妻子卡迪娅比他大将近二十岁？:-) - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/27/2005
谢谢八十一子的文章。合情合理。我也一直觉得伊斯兰教的妇女没怎么歧视，伊斯兰教的国家社会很安稳，而且历史文化悠久。反而在美国，虽然法律规定男女平等，实际上女性受的歧视更多，整天辩来辩去的。为什么要女权主义啊！女人跟男人之间有什么好争的！本来就是分工合作的嘛。 - posted on 03/27/2005
我想我得提醒一下，美国妇女的家庭和社会地位两方面都是比伊斯兰社会的妇女优越的，入室为安当然好，但如果入了室终生不许出来，大多妇女可能会考虑是否接受这种生活方式。周游世界？做梦。去酒吧消遣？讨打。出门逛街？备好男司机，因为女人不许开车。曾看过一篇文章记一位中东王室妇女写的书，她苦于入室为安后不可忍受的idleness(中文怎么说？）- 不许听音乐，不许看书，不许与朋友聚会，唯一可做的是生孩子和呆坐 - 尽力争取到离婚，去了欧洲生活，把她的经历写出来公布于世。所以谈到伊斯兰社会女人的地位，我比较相信他们女人自己的说法。
渴望入室为安的女士和希望女人入室为安的男士在面对伊斯兰模式时，不妨多想一想这种生活方式对女人生活的自由选择的剥夺。至于说女人的财产全归女人，这有点多此一举 - 当你的财产无法帮助你进行生活选择时，要它何用？
美国的好处是每个人（无论男女）都可以选择自己想要过的生活，入室为安，不入室为安，入室不为安，不入室也安，等等等等。你想从头到脚裹着厚布出门不会有人反对，你不裹也没人说你行为不端。
我相信在有些伊斯兰社会，女人的选择会多得多，读书时曾与一位伊朗来的女孩为友，她不裹厚布，也能开车，在伊朗就接受了大学教育，在家也有说话权 - 她丈夫对她挺尊重。这女孩上进心很强，门门功课都想得A。不过我相信，这样的伊斯兰妇女在伊斯兰社会里不是普遍现象。
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/27/2005
Good point, Adagio! - Re: 鍘嗗彶posted on 03/27/2005
伊朗在六，七十年代经历过西化的“白色革命”，巴列维国王时代。那时妇女全脱了面纱。后来又复辟了，1978年，巴列维国王被宗教领袖霍梅尼推翻。
adagio wrote:
我相信在有些伊斯兰社会，女人的选择会多得多，读书时曾与一位伊朗来的女孩为友，她不裹厚布，也能开车，在伊朗就接受了大学教育，在家也有说话权 - 她丈夫对她挺尊重。这女孩上进心很强，门门功课都想得A。不过我相信，这样的伊斯兰妇女在伊斯兰社会里不是普遍现象。
- posted on 03/27/2005
优越不优越不能总是从我们的角度来看的。
我每次回国，给家里带不少“先进”的玩意儿，比如电动牙刷啦牙线啊什么的，老妈偏是不用，说用普通牙刷惯了，很有“优越性”的。厨房里也是，给她买了什么先进的玩意儿，她就说我浪费，仍旧用那一块烂抹布，怎么说呢，唉。
自由的好处也是相对的，不是所有的人都喜欢自由的，这个世界上也不是选择越多就越快乐的。囚犯不一定比自由人更痛苦，很多人根本不想去选择什么的。
伊斯兰妇女的自由或者不自由，我们优越不优越都是相对的，不是所有的人都这样认为的。
adagio wrote:
我想我得提醒一下，美国妇女的家庭和社会地位两方面都是比伊斯兰社会的妇女优越的，入室为安当然好，但如果入了室终生不许出来，大多妇女可能会考虑是否接受这种生活方式。周游世界？做梦。去酒吧消遣？讨打。出门逛街？备好男司机，因为女人不许开车。曾看过一篇文章记一位中东王室妇女写的书，她苦于入室为安后不可忍受的idleness(中文怎么说？）- 不许听音乐，不许看书，不许与朋友聚会，唯一可做的是生孩子和呆坐 - 尽力争取到离婚，去了欧洲生活，把她的经历写出来公布于世。所以谈到伊斯兰社会女人的地位，我比较相信他们女人自己的说法。
渴望入室为安的女士和希望女人入室为安的男士在面对伊斯兰模式时，不妨多想一想这种生活方式对女人生活的自由选择的剥夺。至于说女人的财产全归女人，这有点多此一举 - 当你的财产无法帮助你进行生活选择时，要它何用？
美国的好处是每个人（无论男女）都可以选择自己想要过的生活，入室为安，不入室为安，入室不为安，不入室也安，等等等等。你想从头到脚裹着厚布出门不会有人反对，你不裹也没人说你行为不端。
我相信在有些伊斯兰社会，女人的选择会多得多，读书时曾与一位伊朗来的女孩为友，她不裹厚布，也能开车，在伊朗就接受了大学教育，在家也有说话权 - 她丈夫对她挺尊重。这女孩上进心很强，门门功课都想得A。不过我相信，这样的伊斯兰妇女在伊斯兰社会里不是普遍现象。
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/27/2005
说到自由，西方社会的一夫一妻制是最不人道、最限制人的自由的，它从法律上剥夺了很多人（二奶、三奶、四奶）的经济权利。这个世界上，应该有多种婚恋方式存在，一夫多妻、一妻多夫、一夫一妻、同性婚姻、独身等等都应该受到法律保护。
98年，我到摩洛哥，特意观察了一下一夫多妻的家庭。 ………………
要去Easter Branch了，回头见。
哈类路也，大家快快乐乐，开开心心。 - posted on 03/27/2005
A very nice piece indeed!
People in the West tend to evaluate another civilization in terms of how different it is from the western civilization. This propensity has been repeatedly admonished against by many scholars in the west, yet unfortunately, has been repeatedly manifested in the government propaganda and the main stream media eager to please the government. The net results of such collusion are that most people in North America have accepted the version imposed upon them by the media as objective and truthful.
If we all can see that Islamic women are living a life most of them embrace as a key ingredient to their religion and society, there is one less pretext under which a western country may invade an Islamic society.
Many human tragedies on the historical or civilization scale stem from the deliberate distortion of facts and truth, and calculated manipulation of people. Hopefully, in today’s world, the power of truth, coupled with the information technology, may reduce the frequency of social disintegration due to those maneuvers.
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/28/2005
啊，这话出自玛雅之口让人惊讶。。。让我想象一下，玛雅裹得严严密密，足不出户，在家里一个接一个地生孩子，不看书，不写字，不听音乐不上网，奶完孩子就和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 。。。
玩笑玩笑
玛雅 wrote:
自由的好处也是相对的，不是所有的人都喜欢自由的，这个世界上也不是选择越多就越快乐的。囚犯不一定比自由人更痛苦，很多人根本不想去选择什么的。 - posted on 03/28/2005
要让兰姐惊讶的事情多了去了 ：）
我一直推崇一种随意的思想方式。
这种思维方式在蒙田随笔里得到最好的体现。法国人的书信和随笔是最好看的，因为他们从来都是情感丰富、文不对题、信马由缰、前后矛盾，说着说着就走题了的。有一次一位文友跟我谈到意大利语言的时候，我问为什么她的小说文章罗罗嗦嗦的，她说是意大利语的原因，似乎拉丁语言特别的繁琐，话特多，说着说着就跑题了，反正他们总有的是时间，罗嗦多一会儿也不打紧的。
这些大文豪写的随笔肯定要给中国的语文老师打差的。
我最近又看了几段Annis Nin的书信，倒是比以前喜欢多了。
CND写手有一个最大的共同点：就是中学语文课上得太好了。随便拿出一篇散文，怎么看都不够“散”，起承转合，密密实实、四平八稳，滴水不漏的，这样结构的文章我从来都是不看的。
散文一定要散，这样才能给思想留出空间，让读者稍微喘口气儿才好啊。
我想，要写好散文，首先要做一个散人，或者天生就是散淡惯了的。
说了这么多的题外话，就是想告诉兰姐，玛雅常常是个前后矛盾而又完全统一的一个人。 如果哪天兰姐看见了一个“裹得严严密密，足不出户，在家里一个接一个地生孩子，不看书，不写字，不听音乐不上网，奶完孩子就和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 ……”，兰姐放心，那个人肯定不会是别人的：）
adagio wrote:
啊，这话出自玛雅之口让人惊讶。。。让我想象一下，玛雅裹得严严密密，足不出户，在家里一个接一个地生孩子，不看书，不写字，不听音乐不上网，奶完孩子就和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 。。。
玩笑玩笑
玛雅 wrote:
自由的好处也是相对的，不是所有的人都喜欢自由的，这个世界上也不是选择越多就越快乐的。囚犯不一定比自由人更痛苦，很多人根本不想去选择什么的。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/28/2005
玛雅 is still sleepless?
- posted on 03/28/2005
adagio wrote:
啊，这话出自玛雅之口让人惊讶。。。让我想象一下，玛雅裹得严严密密，足不出户，在家里一个接一个地生孩子，不看书，不写字，不听音乐不上网，奶完孩子就和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 。。。
玛雅 wrote:
自由的好处也是相对的，不是所有的人都喜欢自由的，这个世界上也不是选择越多就越快乐的。囚犯不一定比自由人更痛苦，很多人根本不想去选择什么的。
记得一篇报道犹他州摩门教的，一个女博士和其他三个女人共享一个老公。问她怎么想，她说，这种安排很好啊！有人给老公生孩子，有人给做饭，有人陪他玩，我有很多时间干自己的事。
猜想玛雅不会介意跟别的女人一起分享好男人的。让别的女人生孩子，自己整天歇着。
我就一直希望有人把我管上，省得我每天自己决定这个那个的，累！我最不喜欢选择，害怕选商品选专业选老公，不想为自己的选择负责。自小就想参军或坐牢什么的（玛雅又要说我受虐狂了），只是军队要杀人打仗，监狱里会被欺负，得不偿失。当年自己选了个物理，就辛苦到今天。父母从来不喜欢我选的男友，但他们又不帮我物色帮我包办，好象不成都是我的错。现在的男友还是朋友帮挑的。
其实人生在世，做什么都好，怎么做都好，主要是态度问题。选择和自由多了，常常令人彷徨。
我的问题是，不厉害的人管我，我不服气。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/28/2005
玛雅 wrote:
要让兰姐惊讶的事情多了去了 ：）
如果哪天兰姐看见了一个“裹得严严密密，足不出户，在家里一个接一个地生孩子，不看书，不写字，不听音乐不上网，奶完孩子就和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 ……”，兰姐放心，那个人肯定不会是别人的：）
看！我就知道。:) - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/28/2005
阿姗 wrote:
其实人生在世，做什么都好，怎么做都好，主要是态度问题。选择和自由多了，常常令人彷徨。
哈哈哈哈，知道自己要什么的人不怕选择多，怕的是无权选择。俺之同情伊斯兰妇女就在于她们祖祖辈辈只有一种活法，哪天这帮听天由命的女人中出了个带自由反叛女作家基因的女孩想换个活法，她就苦啰。
我的问题是，不厉害的人管我，我不服气。
为何总想着被别人管呢？阿姗这么传统？找个人来管管，另一片天地。：） - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/28/2005
关于穆斯林妇女的地位，我想了有一阵子了，起因当然是这个问题很有意思，但是更直接的原因是觉得美国主流大众媒介太一边倒。
在中国迅速崛起成为世界强国的此刻，中国崛起和中美对抗－这不是完全没有根据的事。我们是华人。无论我们怎样融入美国社会，我们也是华人。中美对抗将使我们及我们的后代在美国的利益首当其冲。我们能做什么？至少有一样：保持一颗宽厚的心，承认跟我们不一样的人也有权按照他们自己选择的方式生活下去。这样我们才有道德力量来保卫我们在美国的利益。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
这是典型的肚里没货的人的胡言乱语。读这种东西，不但浪费时间，而且污染心智。 - posted on 03/29/2005
chloe先生，
我觉得这个话题及其讨论都很有意思啊，八十一子写这一篇也是花了
些时间的，阿姗等人讨论都很真诚，开启人。
玛雅说的不作选择，Adagio说的选择的可能性，都涉及到一个重要的
问题，也是存在主义一直关心的“选择”的问题。
萨特波伏娃能讨论，为什么在这里讨论就成了胡言乱语呢？
关于伊斯兰妇女的头巾与面纱问题，我记得童年时中国妇女和女孩子
都爱戴头巾啊。这本来是源自于中亚的一种习惯，与气候风沙有一定
渊源，以后也成了一种装饰的美。
犹太人至今男人戴小帽子，女人大冬天穿裙子，这都是传统的生活习
惯。能保存当然好，不能也是不得已。
记得百老汇戏《屋顶上的提琴手》里，“如果我是个富人”唱道，他
的理想除了子孙满堂，鸡飞鹅鸣以外，就是一人在教堂里面诵经。这
个不是人人能够体会的。
曼陀多的那一篇面纱后面的一双眼睛也讨论过这个问题。那里有更多
第一手的资料。
我也不知道自己具体在讨论选择，还是在讨论头巾了。我个人在阿拉
伯世界，尤其是伊朗包括伊朗电影的感觉，头巾戴着很美，面纱并不
压抑啊，当年欧洲的贵妇都纷纷效仿呢。
不过最近看了一部伊朗电影，讲塔利班制下的女性不能工作，需要男
子陪行，一位女孩扮男装工作及其遭遇。。。令人震惊！
我很喜欢这条线上的讨论(包括八十一子提出的问题)。
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
我是在说本文作者，不是说你。没有真才实学却又附庸风雅，什么题目都敢侃，我不和这样的人耽误工夫。本文作者别介意，你接着写，诸位也接着聊，我不看就是了。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
不教而诛非君子所为。请chlone先生有以教之。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
喂，这位同志。可不能这样随便说一个人有无真才实学哟，这不是一眼就看得出的，虽然俺相信你有一双犀利的眼睛。俺迄今只敢说俺自己没有真才实学，旁的人有没有，可是从不敢贸然判断。
再说，这世界若只有渊博的学者们才能写文章，发议论，是不是太乏味了呢？俺今天下午不幸读了几位真才实学的学术文章，现在脑瓜子还痛，TNND后悔耶 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
xw wrote:
不过最近看了一部伊朗电影，讲塔利班制下的女性不能工作，需要男
子陪行，一位女孩扮男装工作及其遭遇。。。令人震惊！
好像我也看了你说的这个电影。应该是阿富汗人到伊朗的建筑工地打工？好像倒也不是塔里班的问题，而是建筑工地不要女孩。那个女孩子扮作男孩，但体力不够，就做烧饭工，吃得大家很开心？这个电影好极了！（对不住，忘了片名了） - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
Baran (2001)
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
Baran (2001)
Thank you, a reader. An incredible love story indeed.
By the way, the lady was beautiful behind her veil, with only the eyes revealed. :-) - OSAMAposted on 03/29/2005
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
and it is hard not to stare. :-)
八十一子 wrote:
Baran (2001)Thank you, a reader. An incredible love story indeed.
By the way, the lady was beautiful behind her veil, with only the eyes revealed. :-) - posted on 03/29/2005
This is a good book.
ar
***********
Veil: Modesty, Privacy and Resistance. FADWA EL GUINDI. New York: Berg, 1999; 242 pp.
Fadwa El Guindi has done a great service to readers interested in veiling and its social significance and symbolic meaning cross-culturally. She provides students of Islamic societies in particular with an informative and incisive book that draws on a variety of sources and approaches. These include dress literature, Islamic textual sources, ethnographic studies in Egypt, the Sudan, and Jordan, etymology, Egyptian social history; and perhaps most important, her own work in contemporary Egypt, particularly on the Islamic movement over the last two decades. She is a gifted cultural anthropologist who has used her literacy in Islamic textual sources and her ethnographic skills to yield insights on the meaning of veiling as part of a general pattern of dress and public demeanor.
Her book includes illuminating chapters on "Ideological Roots to Ethnocentrism," "The Anthropology of Dress," "The Veil in Social Space," "The Veil Becomes a Movement," "Contexts of Resistance," and "Veiling and Feminism." One of its important messages is that veiling, particularly in the Arab Middle East, is not a reference to shame and oppression of women, but rather to privacy in the public arena, the identity of the group, and rank, respectability, and power. A related message is that veiling must be placed in its social context and seen in relation to men's behavior and dress. Indeed, she points out that the primary Islamic textual sources (Quran and Traditions of the Prophet or hadith) either make more references to the proper dress of men than women or introduce verses regarding women's proper behavior/dress with verses regarding men's proper behavior/dress. El Guindi's point is that veiling must be viewed in its historical, sociocultural, and situational/spatial context in order to ascertain its meaning and significance.
In addressing the social/situational/spatial context of dress (Ch. 6), she distinguishes the various items of women's dress and the different degrees of modest behavior they provide--covering head and hair vs. covering the body vs. covering the face. Each degree of covering symbolizes a different degree of modesty and religiosity. But El Guindi also emphasizes the dynamic flexibility of meaning that is allowed and realized by women as "they pull down to cover and pull up to uncover" (p. 97), depending on changing social situations. For instance, the modesty code is relaxed when women are in the presence of their mahram (male kin bound by the incest taboo). In addition, different cultures emphasize systematic changes of different kinds by changes of modest dress. Veiling in North Indian villages symbolically separates the wife from her own kin group and absorbs her into her husband's group; whereas veiling among the Rashayda tribe of the Sudan indicates the particular life-cycle stage the woman has reached.
El Guindi supplements this social, spatial analysis with etymological and textual analysis. She points out that the Quranic denotations and connotations of the term libas (dress)--cover, haven, sanctuary, shelter, morality--are quite different than the denotations and connotations of the term hijab (woman's dress, a term little used in the Quran but popularized by the Islamic movement of the 1980s and 1990s)--meaning sacred, separation, partition, resistance. She argues (Ch. 9) that Quranic verses on modesty address both men and women, do not demand face-veiling, focus mainly on the special status of the Prophet's wives, and do not refer to sexuality or sexual shame, but rather to sacred divide, sanctuary, reserve, and privacy.
One of the most perceptive chapters in the book is Chapter 10 where El Guindi focuses on Arab Muslim attitudes towards women's work. Here, she insists that such attitudes must be framed with the protective role of the consanguine family (my term, not hers) as the main context. The males of the patrilineal extended family must support and protect the women of their family. Jobs as domestics and clerical jobs in bureaucracies staffed by foreigners or unrelated men expose the woman to molestation and dishonor. It is not dishonorable for women to work outside the home when the woman is self-employed or where there is an egalitarian work milieu where men do not dominate. This emphasis on the role of the consanguine family in many Muslim (and non-Muslim) societies emphasizes El Guindi's view that veiling must be viewed as a phenomenon within the context of a much wider social and cultural pattern.
The last section of the book is devoted to understanding veiling as part of the Islamic movement of resistance beginning in the 1970s in the Middle East and continuing to the present day in many other parts of the world. El Guindi argues that in Egypt it begins as a bottom-up movement by college women (unlike the elite Egyptian feminist movement at the beginning of the century) that spreads rapidly to other classes. It is a movement renewing cultural identity and rejecting western values (permissive sexual morality, consumerism, commercialism) and style-of-life in a culturally appropriate manner, that is, with reserve and restraint in dress, voice, and bodily movement. Earlier in Algeria in the 1960s veiling was a symbolic act of resistance helping to liberate Algeria from French occupation and later in Iran it became a symbolic focus of struggle between the State and popular resistance to the State during the Iranian revolution.
I have two criticisms of this scholarly and perceptive book. First, El Guindi like other intellectuals, among whom I do not except myself, emphasizes the functions of veiling that are sublime and heroic: Islamic nationalism, resistance to colonialism, resisting authoritarian regimes, liberation from materialist cultures and consumerist behavior. She neglects the more mundane and pragmatic functions of veiling appreciated by non-intellectuals, for example, improving one's marriage prospects in conservative circles, being more comfortable in a work milieu governed by men, avoiding harassment in the public arena (streets, sidewalks, buses, parks), and simply being chic. Second, although El Guindi has provided many incisive insights into the symbolic meaning of veiling in different contexts, she has not carried out a systematic symbolic analysis of veiling. She might have turned to myth, marking, social drama, or rhetoric of the kind done by a number of anthropologists, triggered by the special issues on symbolism in the American Ethnologist in the early 1980s. Hopefully, that will be next on her agenda and does not diminish the substantial contribution her book has made to the anthropology of dress, cultural anthropology, and Middle East studies.
Reviewed by Richard T. Antoun, State University of New York at Binghamton
- posted on 03/29/2005
ADAGIO太谦虚了吧,还是让我这个真正没有真才实学的人说几句吧.
看你们聊的基本有两种角度. 一是MAYA阿珊式从感性出发,想法可爱又有充满灵感,二是ADAGIO,FENGZI式从社会角度有一定理性分析,而八十一子的这篇呢介于这两者之间.如果我要鸡蛋里挑骨头,那问题也就在这里.这是个好题目,写一会很好看,写二,也有分析思辩的空间,但兼顾不好.
我观察人在生活中经常会把一些具体问题上升到哲学层面来看,本来不错,但往往在这个抽象化的过程中有意识或无意识地丢掉一部分那些真实问题的真实属性,以至于把问题简单化极端化,这种看似正确的思维导致的谬误很多时候是非常混淆视听的.(政客得靠这个吃饭,我们也就抬杠的时候用一用)
有时我想GENERALIZATION, CLASSIFICATION并不是人的自然思维习惯, 我们分析事情喜欢顺藤摸瓜式,事情在我们眼里也是千头万绪,象一大盘SPAGHETTI :)
随便聊聊,一下侃长了. - posted on 03/29/2005
唔，笨笨说到点子上了。造成这个局面的原因有三。一，老八没有玛雅阿珊的灵气。二，老八没有凤子和兰舟的分析社会问题的思辨力。三，老八受的训练是自然科学，还就喜欢抽象和一般化，对特例不大感兴趣。各位的议论让老夫受益非浅。
笨笨 wrote:
ADAGIO太谦虚了吧,还是让我这个真正没有真才实学的人说几句吧.
看你们聊的基本有两种角度. 一是MAYA阿珊式从感性出发,想法可爱又有充满灵感,二是ADAGIO,FENGZI式从社会角度有一定理性分析,而八十一子的这篇呢介于这两者之间.如果我要鸡蛋里挑骨头,那问题也就在这里.这是个好题目,写一会很好看,写二,也有分析思辩的空间,但兼顾不好.
我观察人在生活中经常会把一些具体问题上升到哲学层面来看,本来不错,但往往在这个抽象化的过程中有意识或无意识地丢掉一部分那些真实问题的真实属性,以至于把问题简单化极端化,这种看似正确的思维导致的谬误很多时候是非常混淆视听的.(政客得靠这个吃饭,我们也就抬杠的时候用一用)
有时我想GENERALIZATION, CLASSIFICATION并不是人的自然思维习惯, 我们分析事情喜欢顺藤摸瓜式,事情在我们眼里也是千头万绪,象一大盘SPAGHETTI :)
随便聊聊,一下侃长了. - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
真实地对照了一下兰姐的描述：
裹得严严密密，yeah，因为这里比LA冷。再者，如果我的眼睛好能把什么都说了的话，裹得严实点没事的 ：）
足不出户，yeah，完全正确。
在家里一个接一个地生孩子，哈哈哈，如果我不避孕的话：）
不看书，不写字，yeah，完全正确，我这几个月差不多就是这样的。
奶完孩子，很希望感受哺乳的滋味。
和二奶，三奶，四奶们和睦相处，其乐融融 。。。如果二奶、三奶四奶如兰姐、阿姗、笨笨一般可爱…………
玩笑：） - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
有些问题我不太了解，不敢多说。伊斯兰妇女能选择不结婚吗？未婚妇女的社会地位如何？已婚妇女能选择避孕吗？不育妇女受歧视严重吗？移民机会多吗？好象在美国经常能遇到些中东还有东南亚来的妇女。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍦ㄥ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 03/29/2005
那是一个富婆，穷小子他当然愿意嫁。事实上，他的发迹就起源于这桩婚姻。
伊斯兰世界还是有好东西的，佩服他们对自己信仰的献身精神，另外“不淫乱”可
能是世界男人中做的是最好的。
八十一子 wrote:
谢谢玛雅。你知道吗，穆罕默德的妻子卡迪娅比他大将近二十岁？:-) - posted on 03/29/2005
阿姗 wrote:
有些问题我不太了解，不敢多说。伊斯兰妇女能选择不结婚吗？未婚妇女的社会地位如何？已婚妇女能选择避孕吗？不育妇女受歧视严重吗？移民机会多吗？好象在美国经常能遇到些中东还有东南亚来的妇女。
这些问题怕是要曼陀罗来回答了。曼女士是不是还在西亚北非游荡？
说实在话，我这篇小文的“政治目的性”太强（已经被笨笨指出了）。我的目标的确是想引起华人对异己文化、尤其是伊斯兰文化的注意，甚至挑起争论。
我在想，无论如何，中国的经济崛起是一定的了。中国成为世界超级强国几乎一定会导致中美对抗（政治甚至军事）。我们美国华人将在这个对抗中首当其冲，面临两难的局面。美国是我们的家园，中国是我们的祖（先之）国。如何应变，保障我们自己的利益，是美国华人们需要认真想想的时候了。
很多人大概和我一样有个感觉：中国人是相当歧视异己文化的。但是，我们在美国也是少数民族，我们的文化相对美国的以西方基督教文化为主体的文化也是异己文化。我想，我们必须坚持一个原则：任何持有与西方基督教文化不同的民族都有资格选择他们自己的生活方式。非如此，我们便没有道德力量来捍卫我们自己的权利。
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/30/2005
我想小布政权之热衷战争和改造中东倒还不是出于对不同生活方式的不容忍，更是出于一种宗教狂热笼罩下的对现代西方民主体制的强行推进，尽管两者有关联。
中国的问题是自身的问题。几时中国执政者不再愚蠢地拒绝民主制度了，美国人对中国的敌意会少得多。
- posted on 03/30/2005
adagio wrote:adagio 说得对。确切地说，在西方的战略家们看来，是西方基督教文明同伊斯兰文明历史性抗争在新时代的延续。
我想小布政权之热衷战争和改造中东倒还不是出于对不同生活方式的不容忍，更是出于一种宗教狂热笼罩下的对现代西方民主体制的强行推进，尽管两者有关联。
中国的问题是自身的问题。几时中国执政者不再愚蠢地拒绝民主制度了，美国人对中国的敌意会少得多。
关于中国，如果中国是民主国家，会好很多。还是会两虎相争，但可能会是competitors in good faith, 而不是现在这样的 strategic enemy number one.
但是我们美国华人是不能等待中国改变的。我们只能在这里保护我们自己的利益。我们现在已经不是开饭店洗衣店的时候。我们在美国总体来讲的位置还是满可观的。我是希望我们作为一个整体应该未雨绸缪。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 03/30/2005
难啊，老兄。我们伟光正的心智水平就这么丁点儿，哪天没准又做出甚么蠢事，中国人在国际社会将无形象可言。我们美籍华人的未来，嘿嘿，我们的中国人面孔是无法改的，除非你取个桃太郎的名字，但这种恶心的事估计也不会有人做。：）
玩笑玩笑 - posted on 04/04/2005
Saw this article on the website of PBS-Global Connections-Middle East. A bit long but may answer some of the questions raised on this thread
What factors determine the changing roles of women in the Middle East and Islamic societies?
More rights than one might think
Some Americans believe that Muslim women are oppressed by their religion, forced to cover themselves completely, denied education and other basic rights. It is true that Muslim women, like women all over the world, have struggled against inequality and restrictive practices in education, work force participation, and family roles. Many of these oppressive practices, however, do not come from Islam itself, but are part of local cultural traditions. (To think about the difference between religion and culture, ask yourself if the high rate of domestic violence in the United States is related to Christianity, the predominant religion.)
In fact, Islam gives women a number of rights, some of which were not enjoyed by Western women until the 19th century. For example, until 1882, the property of women in England was given to their husbands when they married, but Muslim women always retained their own assets. Muslim women could specify conditions in their marriage contracts, such as the right to divorce should their husband take another wife. Also, Muslim women in many countries keep their own last name after marriage.
The Quran explicitly states that men and women are equal in the eyes of God. Furthermore, the Quran:
* forbids female infanticide (practiced in pre-Islamic Arabia and other parts of the world)
* instructs Muslims to educate daughters as well as sons
* insists that women have the right to refuse a prospective husband
* gives women rights if they are divorced by their husband
* gives women the right to divorce in certain cases
* gives women the right to own and inherit property (though in Sunni Islam they get only half of what men inherit. Men are expected to care for their mothers and any unmarried female relatives, and would, it is reasoned, need greater resources for this purpose.)
* While polygyny is permissible, it is discouraged and on the whole practiced less frequently than imagined by Westerners. It is more frequent in the Gulf, including Saudi Arabia. Many Muslims cite the Quranic phrase "But treat them equally... and if you cannot, then one [wife] is better" and argue that monogamy is preferable, or even mandatory.
The Quran and the role of women
As the Islamic state and religion expanded, interpretations of the gender roles laid out in the Quran varied with different cultures. For example, some religious scholars in ninth- and 10th-century Iraq were prescribing more restrictive roles for women, while elite women in Islamic Spain were sometimes able to bend these rules and mix quite freely with men (see Walladah bint Mustakfi below).
Some contemporary women -- and men as well -- reject the limitations put on women and are reinterpreting the Quran from this perspective.
Local cultural traditions
Before the arrival of Islam in the seventh century, upper-class women in Byzantine society and Sassanian women of the royal harem wore the veil as a mark of their high status. This custom was adopted by elite women in early Islamic society in the same region. Many nomadic women, however, maintained their traditional freedom of movement and less restrictive dress codes even after conversion to Islam.
Quranic rights for women were not always followed, depending on the strength of local patriarchal customs. Women in 19th-century Ottoman Egypt, for example, were often not given the full inheritance due them by law. If they challenged the family members who withheld their money in an Islamic court, however, they could win. This is still the case in family law practices in some countries.
Female political leaders in Muslim societies
Some women in Muslim societies have been prominent political actors. Female relatives of the Prophet Muhammad were particularly important in the early Muslim community because they knew his practice and teachings so well. Other women came to power through fathers or husbands. Still others wielded power behind the scenes.
* Aisha, the favored wife of Muhammad, had great political clout and even participated in battle (the Battle of Camel).
* Razia was a Muslim woman ruler of 13th-century India.
* Amina was a 16th-century queen of Zaria in present-day Nigeria.
* Shajarat al-Durr was briefly sultan in Mamluk Egypt, but was the power behind the throne for even longer.
* The so-called "sultanate of women" in the Ottoman Empire during the 17th century was a period when several strong women had enormous power over affairs of state.
* Huda Shaarawi, who became famous for discarding her face veil, also established a women's political party and worked for Egyptian independence from Britain in the first half of the 20th century.
Today there is a small but growing number of women in the parliaments of Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon, and in the fall of 2002, the Moroccan parliament is hoping to bring women into 25 percent of its seats. Contemporary Muslim women heads of state have included Megawati Sukarnoputri of Indonesia, Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, Tansu Ciller of Turkey, and Khaleda Zia and Sheik Hasina Wazed of Bangladesh.
Women as religious leaders
Sufism is an important branch of Islam emphasizing mysticism and one's personal relationship with God. The tenets of Sufism were first articulated by a woman named Rabia, a freed slave who became a prominent scholar in the eighth-century city of Basra in Iraq. She refused to marry because she did not want any earthly distractions from her love of God. Fatima, the Prophet Muhammad's daughter, and Zaynab, the Prophet's granddaughter, are also very important role models of piety for women in the Islamic world.
Contemporary women are also important religious leaders. Zaynab al-Ghazali led the women's wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There are numerous women teachers, preachers, and Islamist leaders in contemporary Iran, one example being Zahra Rahnavard. In the United States, Riffat Hassan is a well-known American Muslim scholar.
The role of wealth and class
Wealthier women historically have had more economic and educational opportunities by virtue of their class. Many wealthy women were and continue to be highly educated, their money and intelligence giving them the power to ignore society's traditional expectations of women and to participate fully in the economic, political, and cultural life of their community.
Wealthy women, however, have often been more restricted in their clothing and movement in public, since keeping them covered and out of public life is a way to demonstrate status. Poorer and rural women have had relatively more freedom of movement but fewer educational opportunities. In addition, women in highly segregated Muslim societies sometimes created (and still do create) their own society set apart from the male world. Segregation does not necessarily mean isolation for women, though it obviously has many other effects.
Individual personality and abilities
Whatever the cultural and economic background of a woman, her own abilities and personality greatly determine what she can achieve in her society.
* Khadija, first wife of the Prophet, was a confident and shrewd businesswoman. She first hired the Prophet to lead her trading caravans, then proposed marriage to him although she was many years his senior. She was the first person to convert to Islam.
* Walladah bint Mustakfi, a spirited noblewoman and noted poet of 11th-century Cordoba, gave parties with both men and women where she read her poetry. She declared, "I am by God fit for great things/And go my way armed with pride."
* The contemporary singer Umm Kulthum, who came from a modest village background, was considered by many to be the voice and conscience of Egypt. Even today her memory and music have great appeal throughout the Arab world.
The "veil"
The veil is often seen in the West as a symbol of Muslim women's subordinate position in society, but its meaning and use vary enormously in Muslim societies.
* The Quran directs both men and women to dress modestly, but the actual interpretation and implementation of this rule varies enormously.
* Historically, the veil has been related to social class, not religion. The veil was first adopted from pre-Islamic Byzantine and Persian customs. In most areas, poor and rural women have covered themselves less than urban and elite women.
* Within Islam, head coverings (hijab) vary by culture. They range from loose scarves to veils and full-length coverings, such as the burqa worn by many Afghan women. There is also a new style called "Islamic dress," in which a loose coat is worn with a scarf tied over the hair. Covering of the face was more common in the past than it is today, more so in some regions than others. Head covering is not solely a facet of Islam, however, and women of many cultures and religions cover their heads in different ways.
* Veiling rules vary from country to country. In the modern period, strict laws about women's dress are often used to emphasize the religious orientation of a particular government, as in Iran or Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, Turkey does not allow women to wear the veil in public offices or universities because the Turkish state is committed to a more secular identity. The veil is also discouraged in Tunisia. In all cases, many citizens are dissatisfied with the law.
- Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 04/07/2005
文章改了不少地方，重新贴在楼顶。拜托从这里转贴的朋友将转贴更新。谢谢。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨鈥曗�曞皬璁紛鏂叞鏁欑殑濡囧コ瑙傦紙鍏崄涓�瀛愶級posted on 04/07/2005
你活得太痛苦了。居然一个‘肚子里没货’还敢在这胡言乱语。
一个万分同情你的读者
chloe wrote:
这是典型的肚里没货的人的胡言乱语。读这种东西，不但浪费时间，而且污染心智。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 04/09/2005
但是我们美国华人是不能等待中国改变的。
这话无论从任何角度出发，都是不敢苟同的，无论是美式民主精神还是中国士大夫
传统。即使您自己，能说出这话，就是有所期待不是么。
如果更多是一种情绪的表达，我是充分理解的。 - Re: 鐢峰コ鐢熻�屽钩绛夊拰濂冲瓙鍏ュ涓哄畨锛堝叓鍗佷竴瀛愶級posted on 04/09/2005
理智与情感 wrote:
但是我们美国华人是不能等待中国改变的。这话无论从任何角度出发，都是不敢苟同的，无论是美式民主精神还是中国士大夫
传统。即使您自己，能说出这话，就是有所期待不是么。
如果更多是一种情绪的表达，我是充分理解的。
先生说得是。只是，以中国之大，大的变革必须先在内部发生根本变化，在外面最多是应变罢。 - posted on 04/10/2005
先生说得是。只是，以中国之大，大的变革必须先在内部发生根本变化，在外面最多是应变罢。
确实变革须发生在内部，也正是从这一点来看，目前的状况大不尽人意，但也有
很多触及本质的变化。我觉得吧，可能很多朋友觉得差距太大了，任何变化如果
没有一下子改变根本，就好像不值得关注似的。这个有些操之过急。换位思考一
下有好处。我认识很多海龟朋友，大家总的感觉还是中国的基本趋向是在往好的
方面变化。因为屁股决定脑袋，因此不能不担忧激烈的社会变动带来的危险，也
就对变化的过程和速率有所忍耐了。民间的意识变化是不容易看到摸到的。
至于先生所说身处外边只能观望应变，我理解，但也不是很赞同。变化要发生在
内部，但外部的影响也是关键的，尤其是这个变化很大程度上是向着那个外部的
方向。中国如果有些好的变化，也与大量的国人可以看世界，以及越来越多的海
外朋友带进去的信息和方式有关。海龟要避免的是过度被同化，海外朋友要戒的
是过份焦虑和悲观而无作为。窃以为，西方民主精神的一个要害，就是个体要有
负责的理智和努力。
有些说教之嫌，辞不达意，见谅。
先生关于伊斯兰教的文章写得很好。读过古兰经，确实外部世界对这个宗教的误
解太深了，这在很大程度上是基督教的历史“功绩”，也是当代西方政治体系的
刻意“误导”。
人与人之间的理解，何其难哉。人对自己的理解，尤其是对自身观念和意识的客
观理解，更是几不可能。少些情绪，多些理智，就算不错了。
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