在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
--漫记蒙古(1)
(草稿请勿转载)
当大师让你为难的时候
求教大自然吧
-荷尔德林
蒙古是粗旷的,表现为其裸露岩石的山峰、荒芜的原野乃至风,以及人们的脸;蒙古是粗野的,人们说话声音很大,牧民吃羊肉用刀切用手抓,食量如狮子 般 惊人,平时不忌讳对自己不喜欢的人 、事或牲畜爆上两句粗口,老朋友见面有时像摔跤手一样比比劲头大小, 外人不知道是在打架还是在打招呼;蒙古是散漫的,人们不看钟表而看太阳和月亮,吃饭高兴时吃三小时,不高兴三十分钟解决。出租车到同一地点,价钱大相径庭,打表与否,概莫能外。而且车的方向盘也五花八门,有的是左舵 ,有的是右舵,也有中间派: 拖拉机改装的。 至于的哥开车如草原上骑马,东奔西突,任意驰骋,险象环生,则外人更不能少见多怪矣:)蒙古是原始的,很多地方无自来水无电,更别说冲水卫生间,旷野之上,怪石之边,天之下均可如厕,且不分男女。然而,蒙古又是 质朴与 可爱的,如同一块璞玉,她的美和可爱隐匿在粗砺的外表之下, 外人如果不切入其乡野和牧民的生活,是看不到的, 她的可爱隐藏在广袤的草原神秘的山谷清澈的河流清冽的空气飞奔的骏马憨厚的骆驼温顺的羊群和蒙古包中,隐藏在气味强烈不敢置评的马奶子中,隐藏在蒙古姑娘劝酒时唱的让人迷醉的长调和月光下悠扬而忧伤的马头琴声中,隐藏在给你端上糌粑的大娘的微笑中,隐藏在老头儿对年轻儿子和认为 像儿子的人双颊的亲吻中, 隐藏在未曾读书的牧民说出来的赋比兴俱备的诗意话语中,隐藏在尚未完全被现代或后现代社会浸淫的一张张不会掩饰 的表情中……
第一天到乌兰巴托不如想象般顺利。首先没有看到蓝天白云,而是体味到风疏雨骤,漫天乌云, 同想象的完全不同。更让人不快的是。因为机票原因,我比预定时间提前两天到达,在汉城误点数小时后到达旅馆,竟然找不到原来说好一起玩的蒙古朋友伊壁, 让我好生郁闷。打电话给他竟然无法留言,电子邮件也不给回。看窗外的雨不知道何时停,打开电视,想看天气预报, 可本地的台看不懂,BBC, CNN又远水解不了近渴。正在乱拨台之际,突然赫然发现我的朋友伊壁出现在电视上,正在接受一个年轻女记者采访,听不懂在说什么,但笑容和蔼。我气不打一处来,好啊,有时间跟女记者侃侃而谈,老朋友远方来却不理不睬。赶紧找到电视台电话,说要找伊壁, 对方说那节目是数天前录制的,不是直播,他们也不知道伊壁 现在在哪里。看着窗外的雨,不免更加郁闷,伊壁,伊壁, 究竟在哪里呢,怎么我一来你就失踪了呢?是否我一厢情愿地高估了我们彼此的友情呢?
伊壁原是记者,他早在哈佛念书时经常南下,找我喝酒,对中国二锅头如同对文字一样 情有独钟,两杯下肚不为浇块垒,而是纵横捭阖谈论天下事。此兄有叶利钦的大胆,戈氏理论思维和良知,而且因为放羊娃出身,有很强的平民亲和力,回蒙古后在战友被暗杀的情况下振臂一呼,领导竞选且大获全胜,成为蒙古政要。他当选之后我去邮局寄二锅头,对方说这可是违法的(you can get arrested for doing this!), 于是托付蒙古使馆官员带回。伊壁来邮件说,那两瓶二锅头是他的良药:头疼,喝上两口,就好了;肚子疼,喝上也管用。 我回信说,怪不得“蒙古医生”是所有庸医的代称。因为伊壁 致力于反腐败和国企改革,有一段时间遭到部分失业者的抗议,政府门前广场聚集起反对党鼓动下的抗议人群。他来信说,他感觉有些撑不住了, 作为一个经历过六四的人,我写信告诉 他:“不论如何,不能对示威者动用武力”。 他回信说:“放心,宁肯丢官也不会违背原则”。伊壁曾两次邀请我去蒙古,但一直因为他位居要津,因 不想打扰而婉拒。后来得知他遭遇了一场可疑的车祸,司机丧命, 他几乎丧生。与此几乎同时,另外几个民主派议员在另外一场车祸中罹难。此外,今年听说他的党竞选失利,内阁解体,他丢了官,我想应该去看看他了,于是给他发邮件,有了这次蒙古之行。
既然找不到老友,先自己出去解决肚子问题。先到楼下去换钱,美元对蒙币一比一千多,两张一百美元票子,换得蒙币二十万,怀揣上边印着成吉思汗头的蒙古万元大票,腰包鼓鼓信心满满地去找吃饭地方。 所住凯宾斯基的饭自然吃不得,因为世界各地的都差不多,到这里自然吃本地饭才是。出得门来,举目一看招牌甚多,但不知道哪家能解决我的肚子问题。猛然间看到英文“蒙古饭店”字样, 于是不顾路边尘土飞扬,踱步进了去。进去之后就为难了,除了招牌外,店内无一字英语,店中蒙古女孩只会说: “ 嗨”, 还不知道是会说还是模仿我。如何点菜呢?所谓急中生智,我看到墙上海报有一盘羊肉照片, 指着说,就吃这盘, 对方心领神会。等端上来,我有些傻了眼:餐盘比西餐盘子大一倍,那上面陈列着整扇羊排的一半!怎么办,还是的吃吧。我拿起刀,不论如何也切不开,引起旁边几个蒙古女孩的窃笑,一会儿,老板娘模样的人过来,拿一把快刀,将羊排割开,又示意我用手吃, 我这才大快朵颐。结账的时候我以为自己叫了不止一个人的午餐, 于是 拿出几个万元大票,但她只收了相当于五美元的蒙古币,让我大为诧异, 在美国羊肉可是很贵的珍馐。
肚子饱了,该找伊壁算账了。我先到了他的党部,对方说他会在另外一个 地方,并嘱托了出租汽车司机。等我到了那里一看,顿时惊喜, 想伊壁 一定到这里了,见四周旗帜飞舞,主席台已经布置上,虽看不懂横幅,但想必是一个重要的会了, 好歹跟一个人说清楚在这里等伊壁。这时一个带墨镜的彪形大汉在外边招手让我出去,我出去一看,他表情严肃,用生疏的英语让我出示证件, 我感到不解,说,我来找伊壁 的, 为何向你出示证件, 你是谁?! 他说,我是安全人员,说着亮出他的证件,那上面的文字我看不懂,但他拿证件的时候我看到他腋下的手枪, 于是准备掏证件。 这时候,一个人突然冲过来,将我抱住,我想:坏了,还要将我制服,我良民一个呀!等我回过神来才发现,给我熊抱的是大笑着的伊壁 。
我们来到会场的一角,我给了他一拳,问他如何不给我回电话,回邮件。他赶紧致歉,说不知道我提前来,否则他不会到山中。他告诉我,因为最近在竞选中人民革命党贿选舞弊上台,导致愤怒民主派群众大规模抗议,他劝说无效,人民革命党总部被烧,还有数人被人民革命党指挥警察开枪打死,他为此深感歉疚,最近到山中闭关反思,切断了同外界的所有联络,他在山中做出自己政治生涯的重要决定,辞去所有政治职务,专心公益事业,今天就是宣布这一决定的会。我说太好了, 我来的正是时候。这时候,有人让他去讲话了,他说,傍晚在旅馆内等我,我们一起吃晚饭。
晚上,一辆带警灯的越野车来到我的旅馆,伊壁的保镖接我去一个不知名类似蒙古包的饭店。进入里面一看,数十人在一起吃饭,将伊壁困在中间,他一看到我,见到救星似地赶紧从人群中出来说,抱歉本来要单独同你吃饭,现在脱身不得,你来了正好。 我们到了旁边一个桌子,两人都点了沙拉,叫了奶茶。吃到一半,服务员端上一盘看似猪耳朵的东西,伊壁赶紧让我尝,我吃了,一股土腥味儿。问他是什么,他说是旱獭(marmoth),是他最喜欢吃的,是今天的特殊美味(special catch of the day) . 这时候他的同党也过来分享美味。 吃完,我拿出带给他的礼物, 两本有关奥巴马的书还有两瓶二锅头。他异常高兴, 对我说,我的朋友,我早已计划好了,现在只能提前了。我们明天开始,到乡下去,到山间去,到草原去。临行,他对满屋子的同僚意味深长地招招手,表示再见。
这样,第二天,在一个晴朗的日子,一个政治上失意的伊壁 和一个从来没有得意过也对政治无兴趣的我,还有一直沉默的司机保镖,开始了蒙古乡间草原之行。
- Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/14/2008
- Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/14/2008
Very nice ! Please continue ....... - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
great work! keep on going! - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
我感觉废名不喝酒呢。到蒙古能受了?
快快快,继续。责成你今晚通宵干。:)) - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
废老师好文!读得人畅快淋漓。实在痛快。
这蒙古很对我胃口,看来有必要去一趟。 - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
看来我不快点儿往下写不行了:) 容我将工作处理完就写。
青冈,你咋知道没有酒喝? 且听下回分解。
小曼,去蒙古, 要玩的好,就要有数天不洗澡的准备:) - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
嘻嘻,人家数月不洗澡,我数天不洗澡算什么。小曼可不是娇矜小姐。:)
期待期待,快写。 - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
照片颇有油画效果 - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
多谢老方精彩的加工,你说的对,我下半部分就要写: 整个特若碣山谷
就是不停展开的长画卷。 - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
好文!请继续。:-)
废名 wrote:
在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
--漫记蒙古(1) - Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/15/2008
The travel log is off to a great start. It almost reads like an adventure story, with suspense and hinting at great surprises. Obviously, common sense suggests that the author would not be kidnapped, threatened to be killed, or become the subject of a romance, as is typical of a James Bond story. Nevertheless, the tone of the story is such that has sufficiently created a healthy dose of anxiety in the reader to attract him back to read more.
Good stuff, as always. - posted on 09/16/2008
Fengzi wrote:
The travel log is off to a great start. It almost reads like an adventure story, with suspense and hinting at great surprises. Obviously, common sense suggests that the author would not be kidnapped, threatened to be killed, or become the subject of a romance, as is typical of a James Bond story. Nevertheless, the tone of the story is such that has sufficiently created a healthy dose of anxiety in the reader to attract him back to read more.
Good stuff, as always.
风子的英文真的比我们大学教科书上学的还好。:)))
"to become the subject of a romance",i think Mongolia is not the proper place as Paris.hahaha.
where is WOA?
- Re: 蒙古游记posted on 09/16/2008
真好! - posted on 09/16/2008
在天和云很低的地方
--------漫记蒙古(2)
这是一个 晴朗得让人目眩的天,阳光耀眼,但空气却是清冽的。从乌兰巴托驱车一个多小时,来到大草原之间。车颠簸在大草原糟糕的公路上,那感觉和如同船行在大海上,你被笼罩在蓝色之中蒙受阳光抚慰却有清凉的徐徐海风吹来。
我们在草原中迤逦前行一阵儿,伊壁看到我不停地对着窗外照相,就索性在大草原 间停了下来,来到一个 尚未开放的旅游景点:六层楼高的不锈钢 成吉思汗硕大雕塑, 在蓝天下颇为壮观。我们爬上雕塑的马头部位,照了些像。据匆匆赶来操 一口 流利英语的总经理介绍,这个雕塑 面向成吉思汗的家乡,花了数年 才建成, 数个月内将向公众开放, 还计划在美国大瀑布附近也建一个, 并希望伊壁届时 能赏光来剪彩。我则没有赏光, 问了很多 尖锐的问题,如成吉思汗是否杀人如麻,为何一个纵横两 世纪的帝国后来如此式微 ? 经理一时 无法答上来。伊壁见我对蒙古历史还知道些皮毛并且对成吉思汗如此感兴趣,就带我到其他几个有关成吉思汗的景点, 包括 军队大本营、传递 军事情报的驿站、 军事要塞等参观。那大本营 有栅栏,而且 有身穿重 铠甲的武士 骑马在前面引路, 周围彩旗 猎猎,是当时蒙古部落联盟的旗帜,均以各种野兽作为标志。那 驿站也颇 有趣,是蒙古包 , 只不过要小些,有八九平米左右。 同中国的烽火台制度 类似,蒙古军队很早就建立 起 快速有效 的 军事情报传递系统。所有的军事情报传递都用标准的公文, 用快马接力, 其有效程度 相当于现在的联邦快递, 几时几刻 到何处都有登记,是否有 tracking number 就不得知了。此外,蒙古军队除了数 十万骑兵厉害的 外,还有强劲的弓弩,在远射程内就可以射杀敌人,类似当今的 导弹。蒙古军队还善于使用 大炮攻城,有时候为了攻陷一个城市,会架设上百门炮轰击 坚固的城墙。 我们在一个将军的大营停下,导游将盔甲都给我和伊壁穿戴上,再佩戴上战刀,俨然沐猴而冠的将军。但照了几张像之后,就感觉将 军不好当了。首先是热,虽然 外边很凉快, 但我们都大汗淋漓;其次是重 ,那些铜铁打制的重铠甲穿上了如 太空人一般难以 移动,更不用说上马 厮杀了。
伊壁 对我求教于那经理历史 感到不解, 说我是缘木求鱼, 接着向我开讲蒙古历史。 我说你那些给大学生讲的正史就不要讲了,来点野史和轶事。 于是我了解 到了 介于历史故事和民间传说中的成吉思汗。
他的父亲是一个蒙古部落的领袖,在成吉思汗 九岁的时候,部落之间的争斗导致成吉思汗的父亲被另外一个部落鸩死。其母亲 一个 寡母带着三个儿子,遭到 自己 部落的遗弃,成吉思汗度过困苦的童年,靠打猎和挖野菜度日。在成吉思汗还刚成年的时候,看上一个漂亮姑娘,就在准备 迎娶之际,被另外一个部落掠去,而成吉思汗也被另一个部落掳去,委身成为 奴隶。在此期间,他卧薪尝胆,巧妙周旋,讨好主人,同时暗中锻炼各种格斗逃跑 能力。最后终于得以逃跑,随后在十八岁起兵成为部落联盟长, 联合一个强大的部落,拜其首领 为义父,讨伐夺自己 未婚妻的部落, 一举将对方灭掉。当他夺回自己 的未婚妻并 庆祝胜利 的时候,问题来了,她怀 上了仇人的孩子。成吉思汗痛苦异常,不知道如何是好,嫉妒、仇恨和羞愧让他不知道是否还娶 未婚妻,他的母亲深明大意, 告诉她那不是未婚妻 的错,娶她也不会丢脸, 于是成吉思汗娶了未婚妻,保留了给他戴绿帽子人的孩子。现在看来,能征服世界的成吉思汗确实有胸襟。他后来又 联合其他部落,东征 西讨, 从太平洋亚沿岸到地中海之滨, 都响起蒙古军队的 铁骑声。 成吉思汗有生之年只打过一次败仗, 而且多次以少胜多。 伊壁认为,成吉思汗世纪上是成功的政治家,并不是外界所认为那样是暴君或者单纯的军事家。成吉思汗信奉“不战屈人之兵”,而且说过:“征服一个民族容易,但征服人心很难”。因此虽然在初期杀戮很多,但后来致力于建立典章制度引进文字并征服人心。此外,蒙古族在历史上曾被 波斯、土耳其以及维吾尔人奴役经年,成吉思汗本人也失去父亲、未婚妻子以及 自己的自由多年,一直生活在恐惧的阴影中,在绑架, 暗杀,奴役以及征服或者被征服是当时的普世价值的情况下,成吉思汗进攻还在中世纪黑暗中的欧洲, 攻打屠杀一百多人的蒙古商队派使者 要求惩治凶手不果的花刺子模国,是为了自己民族 的生存和扩张, 后来 的失败,主要是内部的分裂, 当然,也有文化的原因,蒙古军队不善于建立城池和根据地,也不善于经营生产。伊壁说,他希望有机会 写本书,有关成吉思汗和他的时代,其中 包括他的 领导艺术。
我们坐在大草地中间,听伊壁娓娓道来,伊壁带着 一大瓶马奶子,让保镖摆在地上,却只给我 一点,说外国人喝多了会坏肚子。 我说 不就是酸奶吗? (yogurt), 在美国我常喝,而且我随身带着黄连素,大不了吃一片。 于是开怀畅饮起来。我胃口其实敏感得很,吃东西不新鲜或者不对胃口马上就肚子疼,吃饭时听到有人说恶心的事,马上会作呕。但不知道为什么,也许 我同草地有缘,或者精神亢奋免疫力好,同伊壁 喝了半瓶又酸又膻的马奶子, 却胃口没有 问题。不知道那马奶子中是否有酒精,反正我感到有醉意。在微醺中,我们无语看天, 四周寂静,只有 大个头草蝗飞起的轰鸣声,如远方有个飞机场不停有747升降。
此时,那天是瓦蓝瓦蓝的, 这种蓝色笼罩四野且四处泛滥,在令人 迷醉的恍惚中泛滥于山峦泛滥于树梢泛滥于河流泛滥到草原之间,更泛滥且充溢于你心中, 让你有一种 说不出来的 愉悦和欣慰, 你感到享受此时此刻被 催眠般的慵懒和餍足。我第一次感到,在蒙古大草原上,感觉 那蓝天白云很低很低,离你很近很近,但你没有压迫感,而是天人合一的 和谐感。
这时,突然听见轰鸣的马蹄声而且越来越紧,我们都站起来。不一会儿,一大群野放的马越过土坡,飞奔过来,约有数十匹,马的颜色或乌黑、或枣红、或杏黄, 只有跑在前面的一批是纯白色,同其他马不同的是,他鬃毛没剪,长髯飘飘,眼光明亮,在风中飞跑,潇洒飘逸,漂亮得让人心动。伊壁告诉我,这是头马(stallion),马群都听他的话,只见那头马旁若无马,眼睛洞若观火,折冲转折,马群跟这他, 上坡下沟,优雅异常。不知为何, 伊壁此时异常激动,看着头马群,眼泪似乎要流出来了 。
我们又坐下,伊壁说:“我在 草原度过童年,每次回到草原,就感到亲切, 而且感到 力量。我一个放羊娃出身,先后到苏联和美国 留学,带着民主派走到今天,两次组阁,起草了国家转型后的第一部宪法,我该知足了, 但我一直在想,我在 历史上是否会留下什么遗产呢(legacy)? ”。看到他有些黯然,我赶紧安慰他说:“你在宪法中写了保护言论、出版、新闻自由的条款,创办了独立电视台,美国的新闻界和政界称你为 蒙古 的托马斯、杰佛逊,难道这不是很好的遗产吗?”。“可是我总觉得自己还没有完成我的使命,我不知道是什么?” 。我于是给他讲中国文化中激流勇退、见好就收的道理,我举波兰的瓦文萨,捷克的哈维尔为例,如果他们及时退下, 政治生涯会更完美。
这时候,一个 拿着套马杆的姑娘骑马过来,伊壁的保镖同她打招呼,接着一个老人骑马过来。 见到伊壁 如同粉丝见到 摇滚歌星般激动。 也难怪,伊壁 在蒙古家喻户晓,而且在牧民中威信很高。他们说了一会儿,伊壁 将我叫到车边上说,本来我们预定在一个山脚下度假村住两晚,也是蒙古包,但这老人非常慷慨地让我们去他家住,你看如何? 喜欢 意外的我喜出望外,本来我就不喜欢仅供游客玩的地方,而且亲身体验当地的生活正是我梦寐以求的,我说太好了咱们去。伊壁说,那可生活不便,没有电且 不好洗澡, 吃的也没有那么好, 我说怕什么,牧民能过的日子我岂能不能过,太小瞧我了。
于是,我们的车跟上老人的马,开始了两天两夜的牧民生活。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
好看。期待续集——再给废名加点儿压。哦,对,上一张将军照吧:)
为什么头马以外的马都要减鬃毛?
废名对蒙古人的诘问我觉着有点儿现代人的judgemental。那么大疆域的帝国,administrative来讲分裂是必然的,亚历山大,东西罗马都是例子。游牧民族一旦成了帝国就失去了游牧的优势,在管理上要使用被占地的官僚,文化上也要被同化,例外的就是强势的宗教,这个蒙古人也没有。帝国缩水了,可现在世上两百分之一的男性都可算成吉思汗的后代,女性肯定也不少没法用Y测罢了,够厉害的吧,这个其实最重要 :) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
回浮生,马剪鬃可能为了行动方便,如同男的不都留大胡子,具体我真的不知道。
将军的照片, 我看还是咱免了吧。本来自己模样粗糙,加上拿战刀,还不把咖啡
客给吓着:)你如果想做噩梦,可以email一份给你。
抱歉没有及时续上,最近钓鱼运气太好,所以很晚才开写。
曾经看一本生物社会学的书《自私的基因〉, 成吉思汗多年征战, 可能是为了spread 他的基因,
从这个意义上说,他非常成功:) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
曾经看一本生物社会学的书《自私的基因〉, 成吉思汗多年征战, 可能是为了spread 他的基因,从这个意义上说,他非常成功:)
蒙古人曾争战欧亚大陆,征服了很多国家民族,当然也撒了不少基因的载体。却不知他们撒下了多少思想的种子。:-) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
gz wrote:
蒙古人曾争战欧亚大陆,征服了很多国家民族,当然也撒了不少基因的载体。却不知他们撒下了多少思想的种子。:-)
撒了多少不知道,但肯定传播了不少,直接的间接的。有用的思想/文化就那么点儿,传比撒有时对文明更重要。
好,废名请把将军玉照寄到 fushengcf@gmail.com 吧,需要我帮着传播的话说一声哈:) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/16/2008
那蒙古人传了什么思想? - posted on 09/16/2008
guanzhong给你从网上抄几段吧(有些地方可能有些夸张,just an idea。以前翻过本书,想不起名字了):
Too much has been written about the Mongol campaigns and atrocities, not enough about their insatiable curiosity and penchant for knowledge. They were not particularly original, but their effect in broadening and spreading knowledge and skills equaled, or perhaps surpassed, the spread of Hellenic civilization, which has been attributed to the conqueror, Alexander. Extended post roads spanned the entire empire, and both valuable merchandise and messages were carried to all parts of the empire. Legend has it that an unprotected young female could take a sack of gold safely from the Don River to Khanbaligh, the city of the Khans.
The Mongols reopened four major trade routes that had been closed, or disrupted by wars and bandits, for centuries:
(1) the old Silk Road, going from West China, through the Tarim Basin, West Turkestan and on into Iran;
(2) an alternate route from the lower Volga, along the Syr Darya, through Dzungaria to West China;
(3) a sea route from China to the Persian Gulf; and
(4) a Siberian route, possibly pioneered by the Mongols, that began in the Volga-Kama region, ran through southern Siberia to Lake Baikal, and then turned south to Karakorum and on into Peking.
Merchants dispatched their caravans over these roads carrying new and useful things to Europe. This relinking of Europe and the Orient resulted in an increased cultural exchange, and a greater knowledge of world geography.
Skilled artists and craftsmen, as well as scientists, physicians and astronomers, from captured countries, were moved freely around the vast Mongol empire. Of particular importance were the exchanges between China and Iran: Bolad Chengziang, a Mongol ambassador to Iran and the Persian historian, Rashid al-Din, worked together to have Chinese books on medicine, agronomy, and government translated into Persian. They also had an agricultural experiment station set up in Tabriz to test new seed strains from China and India. Chinese physicians and astronomers were brought to Iran and the Ilkhans sent Muslim astronomers and physicians to China. Food recipes were shared, including the preparation of sherbet.
A lasting memorial to Bolad and Rashid as-Din was the latter's history, "The Collection of Chronicles", commissioned by the Ilkhan, Ghazan. It is a history of the Islamic dynasties, India, China, the Jews, the Franks, and the Mongol and Turkish tribes. Bolad was able to supply information on the early stages of the empire, from Mongol chronicles, that subsequently were lost. Mongol rule in Asia opened that continent to European missionaries and traders, of whom the best known were the Polos. Their visits during the reign of Qublai, sparked Europe's interest in a water route to China for access to the enormous trade possibilities, and in an alternate route to replace the difficult and dangerous overland route. The search for a water route to China set off a wave of exploration, leading to a sea route to India around the Cape of Good Hope, and the accidental discovery of the New World.
In their westward sweep the Mongols destroyed many cities and towns, and wiped out whole populations in some cases. Even though they rebuilt a number of towns and restored some of the ravaged farm lands, a good many towns and cultivated areas simply returned to barren desert. It proved impossible to rebuild some of the towns and cities after their populations had been annihilated. Much of the Mongol destruction and massacre arose from ignorance and by the time they learned the value of cities, towns and civilized people, it was too late for too many of them. Recent research and reappraisal of contemporary literature on the Mongol conquests have led to downplaying the terrible destruction, and stressing the more positive and constructive achievements of the last great nomad empire.
Worthy of attention in the field of art were their carvings from horn, bone, and hard wood. From these materials they made numerous articles: plates, cups and bowls; bracelets, brooches and plaques. Their geometrical and animal forms showed skill and accuracy in their lively depictions of horses, deer, tigers, and birds of prey. By conquest their art-forms spread over a large part of the Old World, from China to Britain.
Mongol horsemen played polo, most certainly one of the minor legacies left to the world, by their conquests.
Through Mongol conquests, the widespread dispersal of the Turkish race over Western Asia had far-reaching ramifications. By the time Mongke was elected Khan, virtually all of the Turkish people of Asia were incorporated in the Mongol Empire. They formed not only a large part of the army but also most of the empire's administrators, teachers and clerks were Turkish. As stated earlier, the Turkish language eventually replaced the Mongol language, which for a long time had been spoken by a minority. In many ways, the countless numbers of Turks employed by the Mongols, over the decades, altered Mongol society. As they spread westward, they took with them their language, customs and religion.
They left no lasting monuments to a brief but glorious civilization, for one should call the Mongol nation civilized. Their roots can be traced back to a nomad/barbarian culture, but from the time of unification under Jenghiz Khan, when for the first time they called themselves Mongols, they must be considered a civilized nation. They had no poets to chronicle their heroic deeds and astounding military prowess, and the Mongol language had been replaced by Turkish throughout most of the Empire, resulting in the breakdown of the linguistic and political unity of the Empire. Eventually the Mongols took on the ideas and culture of the people they defeated, and for a time ruled. Ironically the Secret History of the Mongols, dating from the 13th century, was collected and written by some of their former enemies. The 8th century Orkon inscriptions, written in archaic Turkish, by the ancestors of the Mongols, is the only other surviving historical record.
In western Asia, where the Mongol empire survived for the longest period of time, the Christians lost their crusader foothold along the eastern Mediterranean Coast. The Catholic kings could not ally themselves with the Mongols, whom they considered savage barbarians, and beneath them. This was unfortunate because it left them to the mercies of the Mamluks, with whom no agreement was possible. Christianity may have done better with a Mongol alliance because the Mongols were after temporal power and had always espoused religious tolerance. Unlike the Muslims, they had no religious quarrel with the Christians and even were somewhat sympathetic to their faith. They might even have converted to Christianity, but as a nation of warriors, they could not respect a group of people who would let religious disputes among themselves stand in the way of political unity and military victory. In time they embraced the strong, united religion of Islam.
The turmoil created by the Mongols in Central Asia resulted in an unheaval of peoples, their cultures and their religions. The rise and fall of their empire produced more enduring effects in Europe than in Asia. Much of the culture east of the Euphrates River was stifled under early Mongol dominance, giving rise to a westward flow of culture rooted in the ancient classical world.
For the first fifty years of the fifteenth century, learned refugees brought books, works of art, artifacts, ideas and inventions to the West; all of which launched Europe into the greatest cultural regeneration ever experienced by man, the Rennaisance.
After the retreat from Russia, of the Mongol hordes, something rather unexpected took place. From the chaos of the warring Russian princedoms, nationalism arose making possible the creation of the empire of Ivan the Great, the first of a series of oppressive Russian dynasties, and a tradition of despotism, which by one name or another is still with them.
The Mongol gift to China was unity also, a unity which survived for seven hundred years. The centuries old Chinese culture was too deeply entrenched and the Mongols, who had united China for first time, succumbed to their culture.
Jenghiz Khan and his successors should be remembered, not for blood baths, pillage and burning, actions not so unusual in their time, but for breaking down the barriers set up in the Dark Ages, and putting the East in touch with the West, to the benefit of mankind in general. This should be their memorial.
from the Mongols by Catriona Macpherson - posted on 09/16/2008
谢浮生,学习了。
interesting reading. So it seems the Mongols achieved two things:
(1) they opened the road between the east and the west and helped the cultural exchange between the two civilizations. Marco Polo could exemplify this exchange at the time
(2) they adopted local cultures of the lands they conquered, both in the east (chinese culture) and in the west (Mideast, maybe even further west).
But they seem to have little contribution or impact to any civilization. If they did help with the cultural exchange process, they didn't do it intentionally, instead it just happened to be a by-product of their invasions. - posted on 09/16/2008
gz wrote:
But they seem to have little contribution or impact to any civilization. If they did help with the cultural exchange process, they didn't do it intentionally, instead it just happened to be a by-product of their invasions.
Come on, guanzhong, 什么叫intentional?亚历山大西征是为了传播希腊文明?罗马扩张是为了传播拉丁文化?丝路的开通是为了东西文化的交流?文明的传播本来就是人类扩张的by-product,主要是通过战争,后来商业,再后来宗教,当然这些也应当算文明(或是不文明:)的一部分。 - posted on 09/17/2008
Yes, "intentionally" may not be a proper word for what I meant to say. Although, not totally unrelated, it is interesting to consider in the present day world, whether the west is trying to spread western culture/values elsewhere "intentionally", or they are just trying to gain material benefits such as oil from non-western world.
But my point was, the Mongols had hardly any contribution or legacy left, compared to some other cultures, either on the east or west, which did get spread through war or trade, although also "unintentionally".
Any objection to this point? :-)
浮生 wrote:
gz wrote:Come on, guanzhong, 什么叫intentional?亚历山大西征是为了传播希腊文明?罗马扩张是为了传播拉丁文化?丝路的开通是为了东西文化的交流?文明的传播本来就是人类扩张的by-product,主要是通过战争,后来商业,再后来宗教,当然这些也应当算文明(或是不文明:)的一部分。
But they seem to have little contribution or impact to any civilization. If they did help with the cultural exchange process, they didn't do it intentionally, instead it just happened to be a by-product of their invasions. - posted on 09/17/2008
浮生 wrote:
guanzhong给你从网上抄几段吧(有些地方可能有些夸张,just an idea。以前翻过本书,想不起名字了):
Too much has been written about the Mongol campaigns and atrocities, not enough about their insatiable curiosity and penchant for knowledge. They were not particularly original, but their effect in broadening and spreading knowledge and skills equaled, or perhaps surpassed, the spread of Hellenic civilization, which has been attributed to the conqueror, Alexander. Extended post roads spanned the entire empire, and both valuable merchandise and messages were carried to all parts of the empire. Legend has it that an unprotected young female could take a sack of gold safely from the Don River to Khanbaligh, the city of the Khans.
The facts are mostly accurate, or agreeable with other sources. I do smell a whiff of political correctness in his (her?) attempt at rehabilitating the Mongols' brutal reputation. It was what it was, zeitgeist of the 12th century, no need to whitewash it.
Interesting theory about the European Christians couldn't bring themsleves to ally with the Mongols. The Mongol conquering of India and the Central Asia was the reason Islam spreaded to these places. Perhaps if they all converted to Christianity, we would not have two nuclear powers facing each other in the subcontinent. Afterall, the Nestorian Christian community was already thriving in Khublai Khan's court.
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
浮生 wrote:
好,废名请把将军玉照寄到 fushengcf@gmail.com 吧,需要我帮着传播的话说一声哈:)
那就传播我一次吧。:)
chinahussar@eyou.com - posted on 09/17/2008
gz wrote:
But my point was, the Mongols had hardly any contribution or legacy left, compared to some other cultures, either on the east or west, which did get spread through war or trade, although also "unintentionally".
Any objection to this point? :-)
当然了,不过一时给不出再具体的例子了:)其实上边ZT里提到的很多都是lasting effects,没有Mongols,现在世界的landscape是不会一样的,比如因他们而引起的人口西移,the spread of Turks,穆斯林世界和基督教世界的关系,对了,上文还没有提Mughals,印度最辉煌的帝国之一,第一个皇帝巴布尔是贴木尔和成吉思汗的后代。所以我也不知道什么叫any legacy left了。我想要是仔细看看中亚、西亚和俄罗斯的历史,肯定能找到不少东西。主要的问题是游牧族的历史很多是被征服者写的,这里的bias可想而知吧?
tar说的对的,我也觉着用PC的调调没必要,也没好处。当初蒙古人杀人如麻,人头堆成山是他们自己记录的,也就说人那时是自豪的。记得在哪里看过说,美国政府对伊拉克人的伤亡能不说就不说,这就是文明的进步了:)
不知是蒙古人当初要寻找某种宗教还是所有的大宗教都去找蒙古人,反正基督伊斯兰佛教都跑去传教,不知最后谁胜出是偶然还是必然? - posted on 09/17/2008
浮生 wrote:
当然了,不过一时给不出再具体的例子了:)其实上边ZT里提到的很多都是lasting effects,没有Mongols,现在世界的landscape是不会一样的,比如因他们而引起的人口西移,the spread of Turks,穆斯林世界和基督教世界的关系,对了,上文还没有提Mughals,印度最辉煌的帝国之一,第一个皇帝巴布尔是贴木尔和成吉思汗的后代。所以我也不知道什么叫any legacy left了。我想要是仔细看看中亚、西亚和俄罗斯的历史,肯定能找到不少东西。主要的问题是游牧族的历史很多是被征服者写的,这里的bias可想而知吧?
可能这就已经说明一些问题了,我也正是因为找不到明显具体的蒙古文化遗产的例子才说前面的话的。人们可以很容易找到东方或西方文化的历史影响,蒙古文化的影响呢?在哪?当然他们的军事征服有后果,但这有别于他们自己文化的影响。
tar说的对的,我也觉着用PC的调调没必要,也没好处。当初蒙古人杀人如麻,人头堆成山是他们自己记录的,也就说人那时是自豪的。记得在哪里看过说,美国政府对伊拉克人的伤亡能不说就不说,这就是文明的进步了:)
PC? 从何说起?如果要说PC, 正宗典型的 PC 观点是一切文化都是平等的,没有先进或落后的区别,只有各自不同特点。所以我说蒙古的征服没有留下明显的文化遗产,应该是很不 PC 的观点,不是吗? 我还怕人说我看不起弱小民族呢!:-)
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
del - posted on 09/17/2008
The Mongol gift to China was unity also, a unity which survived for seven hundred years. The centuries old Chinese culture was too deeply entrenched and the Mongols, who had united China for first time, succumbed to their culture.from the Mongols by Catriona Macpherson
这个就是最大的遗产。要是没有蒙古帝国,中国不定啥样。
但是文中提第一次统一中国,提法是不是有点儿问题?
蒙古帝国主要是时间短,要是时间长的话,再给个500年,哈哈,说不准我们现在的交流文字是蒙文哪。
蒙古人比较粗犷,不太愿意搞虚的。杀人比论述杀人对他们来说,更有意思。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
guanzhong,我哪里说你PC了,你一点儿都不PC嘛(夸你的哈:))我说的就是我转的文,有些地方过分了,对历史摆了事实就行了,不能矫枉过正。我也不跟你争了,Steppes上的民族这两三百年都是被边缘化的而且也将继续被边缘化下去,主流文化掌握着话语权,他们的影响当然不那么明摆着了,所以得自己去找。要不你给找找去吧,回来汇报:)
青冈不好意思你自己要吧,我得不到授权:)我也觉说第一次统一中国有问题,不过也没法儿争,看怎么定中国的疆域了。 - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
强势的文化,却老是被外族亡国,领土扩张也都是外族帮着实现的,即使没有元,不是还有请?
元不到一百年,大概也有其原因吧。500年?历史大概不能这样假设吧?
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
gz wrote:
强势的文化,却老是被外族亡国,领土扩张也都是外族帮着实现的,即使没有元,不是还有请?
这个不能和现代混着说,在枪炮不够厉害的时候,农耕民族虽然文化上有优势,军事上基本是弱势,游牧民族分裂的时候可以喘口气儿,分而制之有可能,一旦人家团结起来,没有能打得过的,彻底翻身(军事文化都成强势)应是近两三百年的事。
还没完没了我,不再跟了:) - posted on 09/17/2008
gz wrote:
强势的文化,却老是被外族亡国,领土扩张也都是外族帮着实现的,即使没有元,不是还有请?
元不到一百年,大概也有其原因吧。500年?历史大概不能这样假设吧?
中国文化大抵可以用“胶皮文化”来形容。
砍还砍不死,割也割不断,硬也硬不起来,就这么一怪物。
不光是清,小日本不是也转悠了8年,算上东北,15年。
说不准以后还有其他文化入主,然后再被融化。
元和清一样,主要是人太少,都当大爷给贡起来了,也就一代人的功夫,连骑马可能都不会了。
汉族人多,蒙古老爷们就是为了找小姐,怕都得学汉语,时间一长,往哪儿跑啊?全是汉族人。
元帝国的灭亡根本原因。我中学答过类似的考试题。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
浮生 wrote:
青冈不好意思你自己要吧,我得不到授权
既然这样,那就全看废名了。反正我上边有邮件。
其实我也挺想看看浮生的,maya,xw,ashan都看过了。哈哈哈。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
青冈喜欢看漂亮才女的照片可以理解,我一老爷们就免了吧。
啥时候一起吃酸菜血肠肉皮冻啃酱骨架嗑瓜子儿喝....(好像咱东北没有好酒:)
的时候就见到了。 - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
又翻了点历史,发现元还远征过爪洼,缅甸,日本,如果他们能给咱赚下那么大一片天地,省了后世多少麻烦!:-) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
gz wrote:
又翻了点历史,发现元还远征过爪洼,缅甸,日本,如果他们能给咱赚下那么大一片天地,省了后世多少麻烦!:-)
八年抗战不打,日本就是咱们的了。其实现在还来得及。 - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
那么说名单可就长了,还有越南,伊拉克,土耳其,格鲁吉亚, 波兰, 俄罗斯的
大部分。不过,那云南原来是独立的大理国, 现在不是一个省么:) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
行人 wrote:
gz wrote:八年抗战不打,日本就是咱们的了。其实现在还来得及。
又翻了点历史,发现元还远征过爪洼,缅甸,日本,如果他们能给咱赚下那么大一片天地,省了后世多少麻烦!:-)
那你得怨美国佬,本来倒是挺有戏的。 - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/17/2008
feiming wrote:
那么说名单可就长了,还有越南,伊拉克,土耳其,格鲁吉亚, 波兰, 俄罗斯的
大部分。不过,那云南原来是独立的大理国, 现在不是一个省么:)
野心不可太大嘛,那些四大汗国的疆域太大,民族众多,早就超过临界质量了,蒙古又没有一个强势文化,早晚得散。其实日本隔着海也难弄。但东南亚不是不可能的,跟云南没啥区别。
最近不是谣传蒙古还想回中国吗?不过大概是个鸡肋。谁来深入聊聊? - posted on 09/17/2008
在天和云很低的地方(3)
三个蒙古包坐落在山前高地之上,一个仓房,两个羊栏,还有马厩和牛栏散布在蒙古包周围的坡地和沟岔中,那是上百头羊,数十匹马还有牛、骆驼并两条狗以及这家牧民目前的栖息之地,但不是永久的家园。当周边的草场被牲畜如割草机般努力割平后,当井水和水塘即将干涸的时候,他们就会在半小时内将他们的家整个打包,捆绑在马车牛车上或者骆驼的背上,向山的那一边那太阳升起的地方浩浩荡荡地行进。当他们驮着自己的家园向远方百草丰茂的地方向有河流的地方寻找安厝地的时候,后面几乎了无痕迹,连牛粪都拾光, 只剩下零星的马蹄印和标志边界但没有法律效力的成排小石头,但也很快会被大雪覆盖。他们是否会回来呢? 什么时候回来呢?牛儿、羊儿、马儿、骆驼和狗不知道,他们的主人也不知道,也许只有来年的风和雨才能知道。
这是一个典型 的蒙古牧民家庭, 老两口有六个儿子,一个女儿。儿子中有三个已经结婚,但其中五个儿子或者搬到其他地方 过活,或者出外到乌兰巴托打工。家中只有小儿子和一个女儿,还有两个儿媳帮忙, 照顾这么一大群牲畜也够忙活的。 可是,我们的到来让他们兴奋之至,所有 的人都停下手里的活计招待我们。 那大娘将炸的金黄的大饼,将马奶子,将奶酪,糌粑将土造酒,将所有能搜罗来的好吃的都端上来给我们。我最喜欢他们的餐具,全是木头和陶制的,那木头勺子大而有力,一勺子糌粑就几乎 吃饱了。
傍晚的时候,伊壁让他的保镖出去到附近村落的商店买些蔬菜,因为怕我吃不惯都是肉为主食的饭。我一听, 一定要跟去。 伊壁说,要骑马去才行,因为翻山越岭的车开不过去,我说我会骑马。他将将信将疑,还是不放心,担心我堕马,让主人找来匹最驯服的老枣红马让我骑。
我和保镖上路了。 他先是十分不放心,他骑着一匹快马,还拉着我的马缰绳并严格控制速度,两匹马在不平的草原小径和布满石块的山路上碎步小跑,将我的五脏六腑都要颠出来了。我跟他说,不要担心我,我小时候在农村长大,马骡驴牛都骑过,还试着骑过老母猪,但给掀将下来, 他听后哈哈大笑,尽管我想他并没有完全听懂我的话。不过,他可能从我上下马敏捷的身手看出我会骑马了,将缰绳给了我。我现在对伊壁的保镖颇有好感,他个头有一米八,身材颀长,戴着墨镜或眼镜,非常礼貌但没有书生气,而且非常专业,看到有什么危险总是走在前面。伊壁车祸伤过腿,每次下楼梯或坡地,他都走在前,担心伊壁 不小心摔倒,必要时还会搀扶。因为我是伊壁的朋友,他也连带照顾,有一次我出蒙古包撞了头,以后每次出蒙古包,他都以手护在那里,提醒我不要撞头。他做这些的时候,我看得出他不是在刻意讨好,而是发自内心地觉得我们两个四十刚出头的大男人需要照顾。他虽然话不多,英语也说得不多,但听力和悟性很好,比划几下他就能领会。伊壁 告诉我,他是警校毕业的高才生,是神枪手, 骑马开车都非常娴熟,并且非常忠诚,是他的四个保镖中最值得信任的。
保镖将缰绳给我之后,我们赶路速度快多了,而且我可以随着马的步伐身体起伏,不感到颠簸了。近一个 小时后,到了那家商店,一看,哪有什么蔬菜,只有洋葱、土豆还有一个已经 打蔫儿的大白菜, 不过,这里生长期短,有这些就不错了, 我小时候整个冬天不都是靠这个打发吗! 临行,我们发现了伏特加,买了两瓶,还买了两盒俄罗斯巧克力以及阿塞拜疆出产的鱼罐头,正好给招待我们的主人的孩子们, 一并买了 回来。
返回时,天已经黑下来,我双肩包内背着蔬菜, 保镖背着酒和巧克力(他还是不完全放心:)。我们策马奔跑在山间的林中或者草原的小径,周围的树都隐藏在黑暗中,不时有不知名的鸟和乌鸦的叫声,马快速奔跑着,此刻的感觉如梦境。 我小时候读过一本长诗《百鸟衣》,讲述一个青年人翻一百座山找到一百只鸟的羽毛制成衣服然后同心仪姑娘相会的故事,长诗中有很多年轻人连夜骑马翻山越岭的描述,让我一直神往不已,可是现在,我就在这山中着林中骑马,感觉奇妙无比。
第二天清晨,羊的叫声,马的叫声,还有牛的叫声将我们唤起。我现在理解牧民不尊重钟表而尊重太阳月亮的缘由了。因为牲畜是看太阳月亮决定作息的,牧民的作息则是要随着牲畜的。太阳一出来,羊就要出去吃草,牛需要挤奶,马要出去散欢,这些都是耽误不得的,看表有时候并不济事。
附近的牧民听说伊壁来了,纷纷闻讯赶来,在蒙古包中召开一个又一个座谈会。我这临时无业游民则饶有兴趣地帮着这家游牧民干些帮倒忙的活儿。开羊圈,剪羊毛,梳马毛,磨青稞面,在马奶子桶边用木棍不停捣鼓,其间不断有事故发生,不断引起大娘和他小儿子以及儿媳妇们的大笑。最惨的是我挤牛奶,看着轻松容易,我挤了半天竟不出来,看来牛欺负我是生手或者感觉不舒服,拒绝出奶,一使劲儿好不容易挤出来了一股奶,那奶却没有进桶里,全滋到我眼镜上和脖梗儿中,流遍前胸后背,洗了个意外的牛奶浴。大娘看我完全不中用,笑着让我到旁边玩一会儿。
我看无事可干,打起了在乱石边悠闲坐着吃草的一头骆驼的主意。征求主人同意,要去骑那骆驼。保镖担心,说他先骑下试试,但上去之后,那骆驼就是纹丝不动,龇起大板牙看着我们,好像对我们傻笑,并不停地咀嚼着一口干草,如同不良少年在长者面前漫不经心地嚼口香糖,对站起来的命令无动于衷。无奈的保镖又找来我们的司机, 说他家养过骆驼,但司机上去后,又是吆喝,又是脚踢,但那骆驼依然纹丝不动。我说算了,我不一定要骑他走,他这么坐着,我骑上去照个像就行了。
于是,我骑了上去,准备照张像,不知道什么原因,就在这个时候,那骆驼一跃而起,然后向山坡下飞奔。此时我心里开始紧张,一是因为我没骑过骆驼,而且因为骆驼比马高很多,上面也没有鞍子,缰绳又没及时抓住,下坡飞跑的速度奇快,晃晃悠悠的着实让人有些害怕。我没有别的办法,抓救命稻草般搂住前面的驼峰,飞速向山坡下冲去。那驼峰似乎是我小时用过的热水袋,奔跑中咕噜咕噜发声。这时候,保镖骑马追来了,司机开着越野车也在追,不过 因为坡地有很多大石头,左右绕路,开得并不快。在快冲到山坡下的时候,保镖的马追上了,他纵身一把拉住缰绳,将骆驼停住了。原来,这骆驼的缰绳连接到一条穿过其鼻子的细木棍上,拉住缰绳他会疼,所以不得不停下来。 这时候我们才知道这骆驼狂奔的原因,原来山脚下有一群骆驼,他感情是来幽会的,看着他同母骆驼亲昵,我们都笑了。
晚上,这家牧民杀了两只羊,一只用白水煮上;另外一只,则用铁条从中间穿过,放在外边的火塘上烤起来。这时候,白天开座谈会的周边牧民全过来了,拿着奶酪、大饼、酒还有水煮土豆, 举行一个盛大的party。 他们先让伊壁祝酒,伊壁端起酒杯,先弹出一滴敬天,然后又一滴敬地,最后一滴敬祖先,然后一饮而尽,其他人都跟着如法炮制。蒙古土造酒虽然初尝好像不烈,但几杯下去就有天旋地转的感觉。颇有酒量的我感觉支撑不住,伊壁却说,这才开始呢,难道你老了吗?! 这时候,这家牧民的女儿开始唱祝酒歌,先唱给伊壁,伊壁喝光,接着给我唱,我喝一口,她接着对我唱,伊壁告诉我,不喝光,她会一直唱到天亮,我只好一饮而尽了,天旋地转的更厉害了,赶紧吃羊肉压酒。这水煮羊肉只放盐,味道很鲜美,但我至今仍感到流口水的是那烤羊肉。那羊肉不同新疆烤羊肉孜然味道很重,蒙古烤肉调料很少,主要靠自然的美味,羊肉外边木炭火烤,肚子内里放烧红的石头,那羊肉在火上不停被转动时滋滋的声音和散发的香味,在夜空中发散,诱人无比,割下一块,放入口中,鲜美无比。
今夜有些阴,一块块淡色的云散布天上,月亮时而出来,在大地树林和我们中间散发着清泠的光芒, 将周围的草地牛羊照得朦胧如幻;时而月亮隐入云中,周围的山峦树木因此隐入黑暗,一切变得黑黑的,但我们烤羊肉的篝火是明亮的,照着一张张粗糙诚恳的涨红的脸。
在热烈说笑声中,据说是周围一带歌星的大娘唱起了歌,欢快而热烈,有些歌听着像河南坠子的味道。最后她唱了蒙古长调,也许这声音只有在大草原才能产生,它开始如同呼唤牲畜的声音,随后变得高亢、悲凉和深厚,那声音穿云裂帛,源远流长,在这夜空中久久地回响。
这将家园驮在背上的民族,这比吉普赛人还大胆地浪迹过世界的民族,这在马的奔跑中寻得内心宁静的民族,你们的歌是抒发着寻找家园的悲怆吗?……..
- posted on 09/17/2008
浮生 wrote:
上文还没有提Mughals,印度最辉煌的帝国之一,第一个皇帝巴布尔是贴木尔和成吉思汗的后代。
我和几个印度来的公司同僚聊天,居然都不知道Mughal的蒙古起源。不知为什么发音这么相近也没引起联想。;-)
不知是蒙古人当初要寻找某种宗教还是所有的大宗教都去找蒙古人,反正基督伊斯兰佛教都跑去传教,不知最后谁胜出是偶然还是必然?
我的感觉是双向的:蒙古人对各种宗教都感兴趣;而这正好是宗教传播的土壤。从忽必烈开始蒙古皇帝都实行宗教开放政策,NESTORIAN 与伊思兰并存,佛教与道教比肩,至少在中国谁也没有压过谁。但是我同意上文所说:伊斯兰胜出在蒙古人征服波斯和突厥后似乎是大势所趋。蒙哥死后帝国实际分成四部,忽必烈虽有大汗称号,但只统治中国。即使朝廷改信基度教(他母亲就是个NESTORIAN),对其他汗国穆斯林臣民不会有任何影响。
绝大部分来说历史的发展有其逻辑的必然性。;-)
- Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/17/2008
I like part 3, camel, horse, ,,,
废名 wrote:
在天和云很低的地方(3)
- Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/17/2008
好!先顶一下,后头再细读。
建议多分段并在段与段间多加空行,这样便与阅读时“换气”。:) - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
最后一段特图格涅夫。
骆驼骑得过瘾哈。 - posted on 09/18/2008
It is intriguing that "barbarians" in history repeatedly sacked and conquered highly civilized, advanced societies (such as Rome and China). One often wonders why that could have happened in the first place? However, apparently, almost invariably, "barbarian" conquerors did not have enduring or far-reaching impact on the conquered, more civilized culture.
Historians on foundations of western thought generally agree that many values or cultural elements in the western world can be traced back to the Hebrews, Greeks or Romans. For example, they often attribute to the Hebrew Bible the notion of "chosen-ness", of monotheism; to the Greeks, the pursuit of "arete" through competition (institutionalized in art contests, bidding for architectural contracts or the Olympic Games); and to the Romans the notion of government organization and law. In addition, the cultural influences from the antiquities are apparently in art, philosophy and many other areas in the modern world.
Within this particular context, the Mongols have very little to contradict the belief that their heritage to humanity is very limited and narrow in scope, to say the least.
浮生 wrote:
gz wrote:当然了,不过一时给不出再具体的例子了:)其实上边ZT里提到的很多都是lasting effects,没有Mongols,现在世界的landscape是不会一样的,比如因他们而引起的人口西移,the spread of Turks,穆斯林世界和基督教世界的关系,对了,上文还没有提Mughals,印度最辉煌的帝国之一,第一个皇帝巴布尔是贴木尔和成吉思汗的后代。所以我也不知道什么叫any legacy left了。我想要是仔细看看中亚、西亚和俄罗斯的历史,肯定能找到不少东西。主要的问题是游牧族的历史很多是被征服者写的,这里的bias可想而知吧?
But my point was, the Mongols had hardly any contribution or legacy left, compared to some other cultures, either on the east or west, which did get spread through war or trade, although also "unintentionally".
Any objection to this point? :-)
tar说的对的,我也觉着用PC的调调没必要,也没好处。当初蒙古人杀人如麻,人头堆成山是他们自己记录的,也就说人那时是自豪的。记得在哪里看过说,美国政府对伊拉克人的伤亡能不说就不说,这就是文明的进步了:)
不知是蒙古人当初要寻找某种宗教还是所有的大宗教都去找蒙古人,反正基督伊斯兰佛教都跑去传教,不知最后谁胜出是偶然还是必然? - posted on 09/18/2008
Fengzi wrote:
However, apparently, almost invariably, "barbarian" conquerors did not have enduring or far-reaching impact on the conquered, more civilized culture.
Well, that's a very big statement and that's what all the "civilized" cultures like to think. Arab and Ottoman conquerors could easily attest to the contrary. Mughal was another. For examples closer to home, take 北魏,whose rulers were 鲜卑,barbarians from the north. There is a belief that 李世民 was at least half 鲜卑.
There is also a theory that Jewish tribes had a nomadic origin (although the concept of barbarian came later). If we could believe the Aryan invasion theory or some form of it, then we have another example of conquering nomadic barbarians leaving major impacts on a conquered and more civilized culture (although this might be too early in the history to be relevant here).
To stretch it a bit further, the very tongue we speak (surely a cultural aspect) is the result of barbarian invasions, whether you want to consider the impact positive or negative :)
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
For examples closer to home, take 北魏,whose rulers were 鲜卑,barbarians from the north. There is a belief that 李世民 was at least half 鲜卑.
But the issue still is, can one identify any cultural impact that is specifically 鲜卑, instead of 汉. It matters little even if 李世民 was 100% 鲜卑. Those 元 emperors were 100% Mongol, but they hardly left anything lasting. - posted on 09/18/2008
gz wrote:
But the issue still is, can one identify any cultural impact that is specifically 鲜卑, instead of 汉.
嘻嘻,guanzhong,你就不能自己去狗狗嘛:)魏碑(写的是汉字,不好说);造佛像;石窟;译佛经;佛教在中国第一次壮大。你要非说这全是纯汉文化或纯外来文化,随便哈。
It matters little even if 李世民 was 100% 鲜卑. Those 元 emperors were 100% Mongol, but they hardly left anything lasting.
Hmm, I don't quite get the parallels here between 100% 鲜卑 and 100% Mongol, unless you're inferring that Tang left hardly anything lasting either (let's just assume that Yuan had left hardly anything for the sake of argument), or if you're denying the impact that an imperial court had upon Chinese culture in ancient China?
Sorry, guanzhong, I swear this is my last post about this on this thread; maybe I'm too skeptical about things.
对了,最近刚看到几样我以前一直以为纯粹外来的:新疆过来的烤羊肉串儿,咱汉代就有,一模一样的烤法;西方来的叉子,从商到汉都有,两股的和三股的;鞑靼牛肉(Steak tartare),生碎牛肉,春秋或者更早就有的,吃法很象。这绝对是汉文化了哈:) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
蒙古肉串也别有风味(主要特点是香料放的少,完全是火烤的香味),而且个头大,
一个让你吃饱:) - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
谢风子建议, 已经分段。工作间隙写的匆忙, 鉴谅。
风子 wrote:
好!先顶一下,后头再细读。
建议多分段并在段与段间多加空行,这样便与阅读时“换气”。:) - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
光到外蒙,没去内蒙?我想,比较一下应该会很有意思。
没有送你一个青年女子过夜么?"-)
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
浮生,别走啊,你的帖子很有教育意义,我受益匪浅啊! :-)
关于鲜卑北魏,又查了一下历史,发现如下:
北魏效文帝于 494 年迁都洛阳,并实行改革: 以汉服代替鲜卑旧服,朝廷禁用鲜卑语,规定在洛阳的鲜卑人为洛阳籍贯,死后不得归葬家乡,沟通鲜卑人与汉人通婚,改鲜卑姓为音近或意近的汉姓 ......
看来历来外族入主中原都一样,他们学习汉文化,改造自己。当然中原也学习外族,比如胡服骑射之类。但区别是明显的,外族是“全盘西化“,汉族是“洋为中用“。 - posted on 09/18/2008
内蒙古也去过, 同外蒙差别还是很大的。乌兰巴托尚落后,似大陆八十年代,但草原和山里自然环境比大陆好很多。 我想主要 是人少,一百五十万平方公里,人口才二百五十多万,而且一百万居住在乌兰巴托, 地广人稀环境自然好。
至于送年轻女子过夜, 哈,想都没想过, 怎么,八十一子在大陆考察河流时误入过爱河:)?
据说这里男女约会在那达慕大会上,骑射技术精湛的 受姑娘青睐。而最受青睐的 是貌似
相扑运动员的摔跤手(他们这次奥运拿了金牌)。摔跤手在政治中影响力甚大,如果一个政治家没有得到重要摔跤手的ENDORSEMENT,那他别想当选。此外,据 说女孩约会的前提条件是能摔倒她,
就我等汉人就别想了:)
八十一子 wrote:
光到外蒙,没去内蒙?我想,比较一下应该会很有意思。
没有送你一个青年女子过夜么?"-)
- posted on 09/18/2008
Well said. Aside from the Ottomans, I can also think of the Mamluks in Egypt and Tamerlane's Timurid Empire who built the magnificent culture and military center Samarkand, and whose untimely demise on his way to conquer China had given Emperor Yongle some much needed respite.
Good point about the Jews too. They were certainly on the very fringe of the great Mesopotamian Sumer culture. The old testament shamelessly recorded their pilaging and massacring cities and peoples they conquered. It is believed that they stole a minor God of war from the Sumerians and remade Him from their own image. ;-)
浮生 wrote:
Fengzi wrote:Well, that's a very big statement and that's what all the "civilized" cultures like to think. Arab and Ottoman conquerors could easily attest to the contrary. Mughal was another. For examples closer to home, take 北魏,whose rulers were 鲜卑,barbarians from the north. There is a belief that 李世民 was at least half 鲜卑.
However, apparently, almost invariably, "barbarian" conquerors did not have enduring or far-reaching impact on the conquered, more civilized culture.
There is also a theory that Jewish tribes had a nomadic origin (although the concept of barbarian came later). If we could believe the Aryan invasion theory or some form of it, then we have another example of conquering nomadic barbarians leaving major impacts on a conquered and more civilized culture (although this might be too early in the history to be relevant here).
To stretch it a bit further, the very tongue we speak (surely a cultural aspect) is the result of barbarian invasions, whether you want to consider the impact positive or negative :)
- Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
feiming wrote:
此外,据 说女孩约会的前提条件是能摔倒她,
:-))))))
就我等汉人就别想了:)
别驾,你的骑术高超,想来能博得一些姑娘们的亲睐吧。;-) - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
我的骑术忽悠咖啡的文弱书生兼教授们尚差强人意,照人蒙古牧民比,
那是三段棋手和聂卫平的关系。 - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 09/18/2008
tar wrote:
feiming wrote:
此外,据 说女孩约会的前提条件是能摔倒她,
唉唉,人心不古。"-) - posted on 09/18/2008
(3)更好看,期待5、6、7、8。。。
gz wrote:
北魏效文帝于 494 年迁都洛阳,并实行改革: 以汉服代替鲜卑旧服,朝廷禁用鲜卑语,规定在洛阳的鲜卑人为洛阳籍贯,死后不得归葬家乡,沟通鲜卑人与汉人通婚,改鲜卑姓为音近或意近的汉姓 ......
看来历来外族入主中原都一样,他们学习汉文化,改造自己。当然中原也学习外族,比如胡服骑射之类。但区别是明显的,外族是“全盘西化“,汉族是“洋为中用“。
I'm kicking myself here:)我们从一开始讨论的就是Mongols及广而言之游牧征服者有没有给人类文明添砖加瓦,而不是他们有否汉化、罗马化、希腊化、波斯化、印度化——后者是不争的事实,guanzhong你找来再多也不支持你的最初命题:)我之所以提北魏就是因为造像石窟佛教属于文化文明范畴应是没有争议的,虽然佛像石窟吸取了前人的艺术,包括印度石窟、犍陀罗、汉代画像砖、古墓等等等等,但是你不能说那不是创造,否则文艺复兴也就成了只是捧捧古希腊的衣钵。
退一步讲,再回到最初说的撒文化的种子和传播文化的意义,亚历山大对世界文明的贡献好像是共识吧?但他真正在文明意义上做了什么呢,他自己来自“野蛮落后”的马其顿王国,他是希腊文化的学生和崇拜者,他征服了雅典和其他城帮,之后东征把希腊人(包括马其顿人)留在了被征服的土地上,烧了波斯的皇宫,然后他就死了。但是这就足够了,他因此而传播了希腊文明的种子,虽然没有在他的时代里创造,但是人类文明的版图从此就变了。传播希腊文明就是对文明做出了巨大贡献,那么传播(不说任何再创造)中华、波斯、伊斯兰文明就不是么?这么说起来就又没完了。 - posted on 09/18/2008
在天和云很低的地方(尾声)
狂欢半夜结束, 我等 借着酒意酣然入睡。大概一两小时 之后,突然雷声大作, 闪电交加,接着大雨伴着狂风倾盆。打在蒙古包顶的塑料布上,发出咚咚的响声。没有喝酒的保镖先醒了, 接着我们都起来。突然听到小羊在风中时断时续的叫声。伊壁说,不好了,那沟里的羊栏肯定 有危险。
也许是保持繁衍能力的原因,蒙古很照顾母羊、母马,一切能生育的母家畜都会得到特殊的照顾。这家牧民在沟岔中有个羊栏,专门将待产和已产的母羊以及小羊关在里面,因为避风而且很安全,但是因为今天下大雨, 这些母羊和小羊就遭殃了。因为大雨和快将那沟中注满, 水下泄得很慢。
伊壁不愧是放养娃出身。我们到那里时,主人还没有出来,只见那数十只羊陷在泥汤中,不能自拔,咩咩地叫着, 面临灭顶之灾。我们赶紧将羊圈打开,强壮的逃了出去。我们则一边用手挖泄水沟,一边 打捞仅露头的小羊。这时主人一家也来了,打着更大号的手电,我们一只只打捞,最后全羊圈摸了一遍,确保一个不少,才出来。
这时候雨小了些,才感到很冷。可我们全身泥巴,回蒙古包会弄脏无处不在的地毯和 挂毯。于是我们在井边脱得只剩下裤头,光着脊梁,大娘拿着水瓢给我们兜头向下一个一个泼冷水。有道是:“寒天饮冰水, 点滴在心头”, 此刻,我们是:“半夜浇冷水, 点滴在裤头”, 一瓢水下来,水到中间,全身就是一个大冷战。胡乱洗了一会儿就赶紧进蒙古包。
等洗完回到我们四人的蒙古包,大爷已经将里面的火塘生起火。他这个火塘比较现代化, 有烟囱通到蒙古包顶。我们赶紧披上衣服毯子向火。外面雨基本上停了,但冷风还在吹。 我坐在背对门的位置,每当有人进出,脊梁上就起冷风。真是:“火烤胸前暖,风吹背后寒”。这时伊壁将昨晚剩的半瓶伏特加拿出,也顾不上找杯子,大家 轮流对着瓶口喝起来。开始渐渐有暖意。过了一会儿,这家牧民的小儿子背着身子躬着腰顶进蒙古包,令人惊喜的是,他端来一大瓦锅热气腾腾的粥。他说,本来准备早晨吃的, 现在给我们驱除寒冷。那粥是用切割后的烤羊骨头羊肉熬的,里面有土豆洋葱大白菜,还有少许的大米。也许是太冷了,我用木头勺子喝这粥时,感觉是我此生喝得最好的两次粥之一(另外一次也是在半夜,在渔船上同渔民喝海鲜熬的粥),吃得呼噜呼噜,满头大汗,真是畅快淋漓。不过,为了防止感冒,我还是将速效胶囊拿出,每人两粒, 就着粥喝下。
酒足饭饱了,暖和起来,大家也睡不着,开始聊天。这时候我发现蒙古包内挂着一个马头琴。就问牧民的小儿子是否会弹, 他说他爸爸和大哥会, 可以将爸爸叫来,我们赶紧说,太晚了。他说,没有事,爸爸清理完救出来的羊,还不敢睡,怕雨再来。
一会儿, 也喝了酒的老牧民进来了。 摇头晃脑地说,现在年轻人不成了,不喜欢放牧,宁愿到城里打工,不喜欢马奶子, 喜欢可乐。这马头琴也没有传人了。 我们说,我们不是对你的马头琴感兴趣吗?赶紧弹吧。老人一点儿也不客套, 将琴操在手中,吹吹灰,就开始拉了。初时他拉得轻松诙谐而欢快,拉着拉着,琴声越来越急促, 越来越凝重。然后老人唱起来,声音嘶哑、粗狂,急迫,声音渐渐感觉恢宏,如打破锣,敲破鼓,撞古寺的钟,也如大群喇嘛念经, 那里面蕴藏着好像千军万马的巨大的力量,他唱到高潮,连那瓦锅似乎也跟着颤动, 蒙古包外的风声紧了,我们被这歌震撼了。 老人唱着唱着, 眼泪竟然流下来。在他停下来的间歇, 伊壁告诉我,他在唱成吉思汗在雪地中征战吃生马肉喝马血的故事,在唱数万军队 同家人和羊群护送成吉思汗灵柩从山间返回草原, 也唱打败仗 之后人畜集体逃亡的故事。
最后 老人可能感到不好意思,唱了一首有关春天的歌,还学了鸟的 叫声,让大家哈哈哈大笑。在黎明时分,大家实在撑不住了,东倒西歪沉沉睡去。 那司机甚至懒得回 自己床上,就睡在火塘边地毯上。
第二天中午,我们吃了丰盛的午餐,然后同这家牧民告别。他们依依不舍。那大爷大娘像对待儿子一
样 亲吻了我们每个人的脸颊。那大爷最后拿出一个牛皮绳穿的一个怪兽标志,好像是马和麋鹿的混合体,上边好像还有鸵鸟(蒙古草原曾经飞奔着很多鸵鸟)。对我说, 尊贵的客人,你从雨水多的地方来,给我带来了与雨水,虽然抢救羊花力气,但我们的牲畜 一秋天的 草因为这场雨就有了, 谢谢你。 然后郑重将那代表幸运的怪兽挂在我的脖子上。我郑重感谢了这可能是最后一代真正的游牧民。
我们从那里出来,来到特若尔碣山谷。 整个山谷如同逐渐展开的中国古代山水画。在右边, 是葱茏的青山,在左边, 则是鬼斧神工的嶙峋怪石。其山之峻, 其石之美,恐怕只有中国的石林以及瑞士的山同其媲美。可惜我没有带广角镜头,照相技术不佳,无法将 那里的美完全拍摄下来,不过,只有到哪里才能真正体味其美, 所有的描述和技术手段可能都是乏力的 。当我们走到特若尔碣河畔的时候,看到那里杨树翠柳成荫,河水清澈见底,有年轻人在河边钓鱼、烤肉、唱歌。那河湾的景象,不像蒙古,像paradise。
那里有个法国人开的五星级旅馆。 我们不想住,但我们实在是肮脏,开了一个房间。然后每个人都彻底洗了澡, 换上了干净衣服。到外面阳台上,看外面的河、树林和高尔夫球场,喝康尼雅克,抽古巴雪茄。虽然我不会抽烟,但也跟着附庸风雅了一回。伊壁兴奋异常,一扫来时的黯淡神情。 他说,这次草原之行让他在民间汲取了力量也感到责任,他要竞选 总统,要将人均产值提高到一万五千美元。要将蒙古的丰富矿藏开发加工,而不是被外国廉价运走。要将国家发展的好处,给占人口三分之一的 牧民,他们应该得到照顾。 要反腐败,根除每个高楼大厦建设中权钱交易的罪恶。我问他三个问题,你能选上吗?你能兑现承诺吗? 你能保证不被暗杀吗? 他都很有信心。他说选上可能很大,承诺一定兑现,现在保安不错,暗杀可能有,但可能性不大,冒险也应该, 我说既然是你的梦想,你就大胆干吧,但不要忘了我说的急流勇退的哲学。
伊壁说干就干, 在我们鹅肝酱还没吃完的时候,就电话叫来三个年轻同僚来商讨对策。 我则跟着他的保镖,在特若尔碣的河谷,骑着一匹白马飞奔了两个小时,在如画的河谷中飞奔,马蹄不停溅起浪花,身体随着马起伏,其畅快程度比做爱感觉都好。
在蒙古的最后夜晚是同伊壁一家度过的。他有六个儿子,一个女儿,他在苏联留学时认识的 太太还收养了25个孤儿(全生活在一个孤儿院)。不过,部分收养的今天也来了。他的二儿子生日,大家举行party。 伊壁的六岁小儿子一直以为我是日本人,不停向我卖弄他的日语。 伊壁说,他最小儿子同倒数第二的相差十年,因为那时集中精力搞民主革命,没有时间造人。 伊壁一个女儿英语说得有母语水平,喜欢诗歌,希望将来当个诗人。他的另外一个儿子则喜欢当小说家。我问伊壁,没有孩子要当政治家,伊壁笑笑说,我们家有我一个搞政治 就够了。
他的二儿子学古生物,在美国一所大学 读博士,计划毕业后在蒙古挖掘恐龙。我临行跟他说,挖到恐龙告诉我,我好来看,他说一定。
我想,他挖不到恐龙,我也会回蒙古的。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
我的马和河谷 - posted on 09/18/2008
These statements, if true, are certainly helpful in establishing that some "barbarians" may have left some cultural legacies.
However, even if accepting, arguendo, as facts the information provided, including cited the biblical accounts and the unsubstantiated theory with regard to the Jews, the long list of various names does not come even close to answer the question here: whether the Mongol Empire has left any cultural legacy to the world at large that is ascertainable and specifically identifiable in the sense that the Hebrew, Greek and Roman contributions can be individually or collectively ascertained and identified.
The fact that few examples have been found so far seems to suggest that the point initially raised by GZ is not invalid.
tar wrote:
Well said. Aside from the Ottomans, I can also think of the Mamluks in Egypt and Tamerlane's Timurid Empire who built the magnificent culture and military center Samarkand, and whose untimely demise on his way to conquer China had given Emperor Yongle some much needed respite.
Good point about the Jews too. They were certainly on the very fringe of the great Mesopotamian Sumer culture. The old testament shamelessly recorded their pilaging and massacring cities and peoples they conquered. It is believed that they stole a minor God of war from the Sumerians and remade Him from their own image. ;-)
浮生 wrote:
Fengzi wrote:Well, that's a very big statement and that's what all the "civilized" cultures like to think. Arab and Ottoman conquerors could easily attest to the contrary. Mughal was another. For examples closer to home, take 北魏,whose rulers were 鲜卑,barbarians from the north. There is a belief that 李世民 was at least half 鲜卑.
However, apparently, almost invariably, "barbarian" conquerors did not have enduring or far-reaching impact on the conquered, more civilized culture.
There is also a theory that Jewish tribes had a nomadic origin (although the concept of barbarian came later). If we could believe the Aryan invasion theory or some form of it, then we have another example of conquering nomadic barbarians leaving major impacts on a conquered and more civilized culture (although this might be too early in the history to be relevant here).
To stretch it a bit further, the very tongue we speak (surely a cultural aspect) is the result of barbarian invasions, whether you want to consider the impact positive or negative :)
- posted on 09/18/2008
呵呵,怎么才要求了5、6、7、8,废名就给上尾声了呢?这才写了三四天的事儿啊,就完啦?
顺便上一篇书评,这两本我都没读过,看样子不错。这里还可以在线读 〈The Mongol Empire and its Legacy〉。
Book Review
The Mongol Empire and its Legacy
Mughal India and Central Asia
The Mongol Empire and its Legacy. Edited by REUVEN AMITAI-PREISS and DAVID O. MORGAN. Islamic History and Civilization: Studies and Texts, Vol. 24, ULRICH HAARMANN and WADAD KADI, gen. eds. Leiden: Brill, 1999. Pp. 361. Maps, footnotes, index; $146.50.
Mughal India and Central Asia. By RICHARD C. FOLTZ. Karachi: Oxford University Press, 1998. Pp. xi + 190. $13.00.
These are two very good books. Though very different, they both have much to offer those interested in World History. And they share a common theme, which is captured by the title of the first volume: The Mongol Empire and its Legacy. In different ways, each shows the extraordinary extent, richness, and durability of the Mongol impact, and the way in which it accelerated the emergence of a single Eurasian world.
The volume edited by Reuven Amitai-Preiss and David Morgan is a collection of seventeen essays from a conference held in March 1991 at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London. The essays convey a powerful impression of the vitality of studies on the Mongol empire and its successor states. The editors have grouped the essays under four main headings: the history of the Mongol Empire, the Mongols in the Middle East (mainly on aspects of the Ilkhanid empire), the Mongols in China and the Far East, and the Mongol Legacy. But the themes of the volume cross these borders at many points.
One important theme (touched on also in Richard Foltz's book) is the astonishing durability of Chinggissid legitimacy. Peter Jackson offers a nuanced account of the breakup of the Mongol Empire into different "uluses" that have too easily been seen as the patrimonies of members of Chinggis Khan's own family. Amitai-Preiss argues that the [End Page 476] Mongol "Imperial idea" exerted a durable influence on Ilkhanid foreign policy. Hodong King and Junko Miyawaki explore the complex succession conflicts of Moghulistan in the fourteenth century, and of the Oyirad (western Mongolian) worlds. In both regions, claims to Chinggissid descent, or the absence of such claims, were amongst the most important factors in the outcome of struggles for leadership. Finally, Haining explores a modern Mongolian historiography, in which the central problem remains: the relationship of modern Mongolia to Chinggis Khan and his heirs.
There are several other important essays on the historiography of the Mongol Empire. As Charles Melville hints, in a detailed study of sources on Ilkhan Öljeitü's Conquest of Gilan, in 1307, the Mongol era offers an unusual opportunity to see relations between the sedentary and the pastoralist worlds in "3-D," because, unusually, we have extensive records from both sides. Normally, we see the pastoralist world through the jaundiced eyes of literate enemies from the sedentary world. Three essays discuss the Mongol impact on Chinese historiography. Sh. Bira shows the impact on Yuan era thinking of writings by Qubilai Qa'an's Buddhist adviser, 'Phags-pa bLa-ma. 'Phags-pa bLa-ma not only developed a theory of relations between the secular and spiritual authorities that shows remarkable parallels with contemporary Christian discussions of the same topic--he also founded the notion that Mongol rulers represented a third great Buddhist monarchy, the first two being the Indian and Tibetan monarchies (historians who know their Muscovite history will immediately note the parallel with the theory of "Moscow as the Third Rome"). T. H. Barrett reminds us that, for the most part, Chinese historiography has been far less admiring of Qubilai Qa'an than the historiography of the West, which was so influenced by the writings of Marco Polo. Hidehiro Okada takes up this theme but with another twist. He argues that the writings of the Han historian, Sima Qian, created an enduring image of China as "an ethnically homogeneous nation with a long, uninterrupted history of its own civilization little affected by occasional barbarian intrusions" (p. 269), despite the fact that Chinese nationhood had been constructed by bringing together elements from the sedentary and pastoralist worlds. Okada argues that Mongol historiography for the first time encouraged historians in China to give due recognition to the role of pastoralists, though the historiography of later periods eventually returned to the model of Sima Qian.
The Ilkhanid historian, Rashid al-Din, is the subject of two important essays, both of which cast new light on his legacy. A. H. Morton [End Page 477] shows that his "letters" are almost certainly an early fifteenth-century forgery; they tell us more about the attitudes of Timurid officials than of Rashid himself. On the other hand, A. K. S. Lambton's essay shows that Rashid was much more than a historian. His writings on agronomy and arboriculture constitute an invaluable source on the agrarian history of the Ilkhanid period, and were clearly motivated by the need to encourage agrarian revival after the destruction caused during the Mongol conquests.
Rashid's writings on agriculture also raise another important theme, that of the Mongol contribution to an emerging "Eurasian" civilization. Rashid is interested not just in traditional Persian practices, but also in those of Central Asia, India, China, and southeast Asia. He describes mulberry cultivation in China as well as many exotic trees from India. As Lambton points out, his works would have been impossible without the astonishing exchanges of information that were part of the Mongol legacy. Equally striking is Paul Buell's essay on the exchanges of culinary traditions made possible by the creation of the Mongol empire. Thus, fourteenth-century Chinese cookbooks contained many recipes whose Middle Eastern origins are clearly recognizable, while there is a strong case for arguing that the word "baklava" (for which the first recipe can be found in a Yuan-dynasty cookbook) is of Mongolian origin. Such parallels are not just intriguing. They highlight the fact that, at least from the time of the Mongolian empire, Eurasia has had a single history. To some degree, most of the essays in this volume touch on the same theme of the Mongols contribution to an emerging "Eurasian" history and culture. As the editors point out in their Introduction, the theme of the book is "by nature both world history and comparative history" (p. 2). This review can do little to convey the full richness of the essays in this volume. Highly recommended.
Richard Foltz's book takes us into the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. But it pursues similar themes. Foltz is interested in the extent to which the rulers of the Mughal Empire saw themselves as part of a common Persian/Central Asian/Indian cultural world united by Islam and a shared cultural heritage. He is particularly interested in the extent to which Mughal rulers identified themselves as Central Asians. None of them abandoned hope of eventually reconquering the lands lost by Babur, the founder of the dynasty, to what the Mughals saw as Uzbek interlopers. There was a constant flow of trade, and of travelers between Central Asia and Mughal India. And, at least at the elite level, there was a strong sense of sharing in a common heritage. The [End Page 478] unity of this world has been obscured by many factors, including the difficulties of doing research on both sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, the emergence of distinct scholarly languages (Russian and English) in Central Asia and India, and the paucity of scholars with command of both Russian and Persian sources. Foltz recreates this world superbly. His book is well constructed (apart from some unnecessary repetitions) and is remarkably concise. He packs a lot into a mercifully short book.
Foltz is also well aware of the wider resonance of these themes, for he reminds us that the close links he describes between Central Asia, Persia, and India in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries reflect a much more ancient phenomenon. This was a world in which links of culture, trade, and travel go back to the very origins of a Eurasian world system from perhaps as early as 2000 B.C.E. To project the modern borders between Central Asia, Persia, and the Indian sub-continent back into the past is to miss some important and enduring continuities. Both volumes have a powerful message for world historians: it is vital to reconceptualize the geographical units that guide our thinking. Otherwise, we will never escape the gravitational pull of a nationalist paradigm that hides from us the sort of trans-Eurasian parallels and connections explored so well in these two volumes.
DAVID CHRISTIAN
Macquarie University
- posted on 09/18/2008
浮生 wrote:
I'm kicking myself here:)我们从一开始讨论的就是Mongols及广而言之游牧征服者有没有给人类文明添砖加瓦,而不是他们有否汉化、罗马化、希腊化、波斯化、印度化——后者是不争的事实,guanzhong你找来再多也不支持你的最初命题:)我之所以提北魏就是因为造像石窟佛教属于文化文明范畴应是没有争议的,虽然佛像石窟吸取了前人的艺术,包括印度石窟、犍陀罗、汉代画像砖、古墓等等等等,但是你不能说那不是创造,否则文艺复兴也就成了只是捧捧古希腊的衣钵。
和浮生讨论有趣而长见识。:-)
我最初的命题是barbarian民族的征服很少留下他们自己的文化印记,至于他们“汉化、罗马化、希腊化、波斯化、印度化“似乎是一个更强的命题,因为他们也可以既不留印记,又“顽固不化“。北魏石窟艺术当然是他们的贡献,但这个贡献并不是源自他们自己的鲜卑文化,而是他们的汉化以后的创造。比如大山说相声,大概没有什么加拿大文化的印记吧?:-)
退一步讲,再回到最初说的撒文化的种子和传播文化的意义,亚历山大对世界文明的贡献好像是共识吧?但他真正在文明意义上做了什么呢,他自己来自“野蛮落后”的马其顿王国,他是希腊文化的学生和崇拜者,他征服了雅典和其他城帮,之后东征把希腊人(包括马其顿人)留在了被征服的土地上,烧了波斯的皇宫,然后他就死了。但是这就足够了,他因此而传播了希腊文明的种子,虽然没有在他的时代里创造,但是人类文明的版图从此就变了。传播希腊文明就是对文明做出了巨大贡献,那么传播(不说任何再创造)中华、波斯、伊斯兰文明就不是么?这么说起来就又没完了。
你这个例子说明barbarian民族的征服可能帮助其他强势文化的传播,类似成吉思汗的征服,这我一直同意,但这只是他们征服的后果,而不是他们的创造。或者,至多可以说他们把别人的种子种在新征服的土地上,当然你如果把这也叫撒种子,上倒是也不是说不过去哈。:-) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
PS, 再一想,其实亚历山大和成吉思汗还是有很大区别的,亚历山大从小就全盘接受了希腊文化的教育,在这个意义上他的征服也是希腊文化的征服,而不仅仅是“野蛮落后”的马其顿的征服。成吉思汗则不是。 - posted on 09/18/2008
If you think that not every cultrue can be placed on the same pedestal in terms of the dominance and influence in world history, then you hardly need to argue with me. I was the one who pointed out the whitewash of the Mongols's barbarity in the original article. The argument is whether the Mongols and/or other nomadic "barbarians" had left ANY cultural legacy at all, then the few examples I and fosheng cited seems aplenty to answer TAHT question.
As far as your standard of contribution vis-a-vis the Hebrew/Greco-Roman cultrues, can you give more detailed examples? After all the Roman culture is just an extension of the Hellenistic tradition, no?
风子 wrote:
These statements, if true, are certainly helpful in establishing that some "barbarians" may have left some cultural legacies.
However, even if accepting, arguendo, as facts the information provided, including cited the biblical accounts and the unsubstantiated theory with regard to the Jews, the long list of various names does not come even close to answer the question here: whether the Mongol Empire has left any cultural legacy to the world at large that is ascertainable and specifically identifiable in the sense that the Hebrew, Greek and Roman contributions can be individually or collectively ascertained and identified.
The fact that few examples have been found so far seems to suggest that the point initially raised by GZ is not invalid.
- posted on 09/18/2008
gz wrote:
我最初的命题是barbarian民族的征服很少留下他们自己的文化印记,至于他们“汉化、罗马化、希腊化、波斯化、印度化“似乎是一个更强的命题,因为他们也可以既不留印记,又“顽固不化“。北魏石窟艺术当然是他们的贡献,但这个贡献并不是源自他们自己的鲜卑文化,而是他们的汉化以后的创造。比如大山说相声,大概没有什么加拿大文化的印记吧?:-)
顽固不化:)这两样是一个层次么?你讲英语对英语世界没有任何贡献。你做科研用英文写文章就是作为中国人对科技的贡献(如果你确实做了贡献的话哈:))你的思维到底是中国的还是西方的分的了那么清么?就算你十分努力,你可能完全西化么?科学方法尚可大致归于西方,人文艺术领域就很说不清了,何况这方面的创造既要传乘又要生命的原动力。
PS, 再一想,其实亚历山大和成吉思汗还是有很大区别的,亚历山大从小就全盘接受了希腊文化的教育,在这个意义上他的征服也是希腊文化的征服,而不仅仅是“野蛮落后”的马其顿的征服。
That's what you and I think, not what the ancient Athenians thought :) Besides, as you said, he received Greek education (希腊化,或更准确地说雅典化), he did not create anything we identify as Greek culture. His legacy, however, much beyond military, is long-lasting and undeniable. Now we're splitting hairs and I hate myself. :) - posted on 09/18/2008
好玩,接着分头发!:-)
顽固不化:)这两样是一个层次么?你讲英语对英语世界没有任何贡献。你做科研用英文写文章就是作为中国人对科技的贡献(如果你确实做了贡献的话哈:))你的思维到底是中国的还是西方的分的了那么清么?就算你十分努力,你可能完全西化么?科学方法尚可大致归于西方,人文艺术领域就很说不清了,何况这方面的创造既要传乘又要生命的原动力。
先依你的逻辑,假设科技是西方文化的一部分(not quite true though)。我用英文发表文章无非是一个西化的中国人对西方文化的贡献,没有丝毫中国文化的影子,就象一个汉化的鲜卑人为汉文化做贡献一样。As far as this issue is concerned, whether I am originally from China or anywhere else has no significance. Right?
PS, 再一想,其实亚历山大和成吉思汗还是有很大区别的,亚历山大从小就全盘接受了希腊文化的教育,在这个意义上他的征服也是希腊文化的征服,而不仅仅是“野蛮落后”的马其顿的征服。That's what you and I think, not what the ancient Athenians thought :)
死人怎么想不算数。很多中国人不是很为成吉思汗征服欧亚而骄傲吗? just kidding!
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
我前面提的话题怎么没人搭茬?蒙古人到底想不想回归中国?老百姓怎么想,政府怎么想,不会是纯粹谣传吧? 废名在蒙古没听说什么? - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
First, I have to say I don't know any inside story. This is just some of my observation:
I think it was a bit wishful thinking from the chinese side, even though some NPRP member proposed that. I don't see any solid public opinion supporting that idea, Plus , there are many other issues involved, it is not easy to materialize the idea which seems to be mutual benificial. - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/18/2008
guanzhong我已经没有耐心打字了,而且咱们把人废名好好的文章线越拖越远,我的错,抱歉废名。guanzhong还是你啥时候请我吃饭咱们再聊吧?咦,好像上次争论什么我就让你请我吃饭来着,还没有兑现:)我举的例子是不太合适,你对你自己最有发言权,但希望你能够看出那不是同一个层次的事情,不是只为争论而争论。我们还是都一起看看书吧。 - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/19/2008
哈哈,赶紧握手,下次也喝点小酒吧?:-)
Didn't you have fun though? :-) - posted on 09/19/2008
Let's put aside your rambling rhetoric for a moment, and focus instead on the central issue related to the theme here: Mongol's cultural legacy.
Can you point out just one single example from your laundry list that is relevant to the question whether or not THE MONGOL EMPIRE has left any legacy?
I certainly don't have a complete answer to the question. Nor I pretend to have one. From what I have seen so far, I don't think anyone does.
tar wrote:
If you think that not every cultrue can be placed on the same pedestal in terms of the dominance and influence in world history, then you hardly need to argue with me. I was the one who pointed out the whitewash of the Mongols's barbarity in the original article. The argument is whether the Mongols and/or other nomadic "barbarians" had left ANY cultural legacy at all, then the few examples I and fosheng cited seems aplenty to answer TAHT question.
As far as your standard of contribution vis-a-vis the Hebrew/Greco-Roman cultrues, can you give more detailed examples? After all the Roman culture is just an extension of the Hellenistic tradition, no?
风子 wrote:
These statements, if true, are certainly helpful in establishing that some "barbarians" may have left some cultural legacies.
However, even if accepting, arguendo, as facts the information provided, including cited the biblical accounts and the unsubstantiated theory with regard to the Jews, the long list of various names does not come even close to answer the question here: whether the Mongol Empire has left any cultural legacy to the world at large that is ascertainable and specifically identifiable in the sense that the Hebrew, Greek and Roman contributions can be individually or collectively ascertained and identified.
The fact that few examples have been found so far seems to suggest that the point initially raised by GZ is not invalid.
- posted on 09/19/2008
you are more than welcome, I am flattered to see my simple travel blogs can inspire some serious debates. I have been trying to figure out all those questions by reading a few books myself, but it is so complicated, it will be interesting to read more and find out more. One thing I learned from this trip is that the Mongolian culture and history deserve some more attention, they build an empire in two centuries and it took four hundred years for the Romans to build their Empire, and Chenjisihan had issued nine thousand military and political regulations which worked during war and peace. Why people always have to do as the Romans do?
Yes, it doesn't seem Mongolians leave much legacy because of their cultural limiations, but at least we can learn some lessons from their subsequent failures. And I don't agree that their culture is inferior, they had the best military technology by then.
浮生 wrote:
guanzhong我已经没有耐心打字了,而且咱们把人废名好好的文章线越拖越远,我的错,抱歉废名。guanzhong还是你啥时候请我吃饭咱们再聊吧?咦,好像上次争论什么我就让你请我吃饭来着,还没有兑现:)我举的例子是不太合适,你对你自己最有发言权,但希望你能够看出那不是同一个层次的事情,不是只为争论而争论。我们还是都一起看看书吧。 - posted on 09/19/2008
废兄这回马骑得过劲,再赞一个!
废名 wrote:
在天和云很低的地方(尾声)
他的二儿子学古生物,在美国一所大学 读博士,计划毕业后在蒙古挖掘恐龙。我临行跟他说,挖到恐龙告诉我,我好来看,他说一定。
我想,他挖不到恐龙,我也会回蒙古的。
蒙古恐龙化石是很有名的。当年美国考古学家就最先在那里发现恐龙
蛋化石,中美考古学家联合行动,还发现了北京人,山顶洞等。
这是百度来的一点世界恐龙发现以及蒙古恐龙资料:
&
发现恐龙属种较多的国家有:美国发现64属;蒙古国发现40属;中国发现36属;加拿大发现31属;英国发现26属;阿根廷发现23属。
蒙古国是著名的恐龙墓地,所有发掘出来的恐龙骨骼和恐龙蛋化石已经被保护起来。
1,一种恐龙没有牙,仅有一个很大的颌骨,用于压碎食物。这种恐龙以小脊椎动物、软体动物和蛋类为食。
2,一种恐龙,在其骨骼内含有空气囊以支撑起24英尺长的颈脖,它属于一种属于蜥脚类的素食动物,是地球上有史以来最大的动物.
3,盗龙化石,是在蒙古的乌哈托喀发现的,它要比火鸡稍大一些,其头骨保存十分完好,是迄今发现的保存最完好的奔龙头骨化石之一。
4,奔龙(Dromaeosaurid)是一种行动敏捷的两足兽脚类恐龙,生活在白垩纪时期的亚洲和美洲地区,被认为是与鸟类亲缘关系最近的物种。许多奔龙身上还留有羽毛。
5,另一个盗龙新物种被称为Shanag ashile,考古学家在蒙古的乌斯地区发现了它的几块颚骨碎片。它的生活年代大约要比Tsaagan早2000万年,可能还要更小一些,估计只有乌鸦那样大小。Shanag ashile很可能类似于在我国发现的小盗龙(Microraptor),一种长有羽毛的类鸟恐龙。
6,其他在蒙古发掘到的品种还有赛查龙、Ingenia(据说Ingenia是产地名,于1981年发现。生活在白垩纪后期。全长1.4米。)等。
主要种类有亚洲氏鸟龙、欧氏阿莱龙、姜氏巴克龙、蒙古满洲龙、盘足龙、镰刀龙、原角龙、梁龙、羽类恐龙、奔龙、赛查龙、蜥脚类素食龙等。
- posted on 09/19/2008
feiming wrote:
you are more than welcome, I am flattered to see my simple travel blogs can inspire some serious debates. I have been trying to figure out all those questions by reading a few books myself, but it is so complicated, it will be interesting to read more and find out more. One thing I learned from this trip is that the Mongolian culture and history deserve some more attention, they build an empire in two centuries and it took four hundred years for the Romans to build their Empire, and Chenjisihan had issued nine thousand military and political regulations which worked during war and peace. Why people always have to do as the Romans do?
Yes, it is indeed a miracle that Genghis Khan could conquer such a vast land, as big as the Roman Empire at its peak, in such a short period of time and from such a humble cultural and personal start. It seems such a fast rise is unparalleled in history. This fact itself is worth some study.
On the other hand, his empire also fell very quickly. It lasted much shorter than the 1200 years of the Roman Empire. Most likely this is correlated with its quick rise. - posted on 09/19/2008
You are the one who seems to constantly change the argument at a whim. The original argument was whether the Mongols or other "barbaric" peoples had left ANY legacies, and you came up with the incoherent rant about "ascertainable" metrics but can hardly provide any substantive discourse. Among other things, you bastardized the Hebrew cultrue to "chosen-ness" (is that a word? ;-)) and the Greeks to a bunch of climbers. And congratulations for splitting the Greco-Roman culture into two distinctive parts.
But more importantly, whenever you see unfamiliar terms or names, there are plenty of resources online at your disposal. You can easily find the linkage between the Timurid Empire and the Mongol Empire, and the cultural renaissance in Samarkand and the rest of the Transoxiana. For other "barbaric" people's legacy, the Ottoman Turks' contribution to the world culture has hardly gone distinct. But unlike you, I have no stomach to extract these legacies to a one word caricature.
Finally, for someone who professes that he doesn't have any answers, it doesn't seem to deter you from offering them. ;-)
风子 wrote:
Let's put aside your rambling rhetoric for a moment, and focus instead on the central issue related to the theme here: Mongol's cultural legacy.
Can you point out just one single example from your laundry list that is relevant to the question whether or not THE MONGOL EMPIRE has left any legacy?
I certainly don't have a complete answer to the question. Nor I pretend to have one. From what I have seen so far, I don't think anyone does.
tar wrote:
If you think that not every cultrue can be placed on the same pedestal in terms of the dominance and influence in world history, then you hardly need to argue with me. I was the one who pointed out the whitewash of the Mongols's barbarity in the original article. The argument is whether the Mongols and/or other nomadic "barbarians" had left ANY cultural legacy at all, then the few examples I and fosheng cited seems aplenty to answer TAHT question.
As far as your standard of contribution vis-a-vis the Hebrew/Greco-Roman cultrues, can you give more detailed examples? After all the Roman culture is just an extension of the Hellenistic tradition, no?
风子 wrote:
These statements, if true, are certainly helpful in establishing that some "barbarians" may have left some cultural legacies.
However, even if accepting, arguendo, as facts the information provided, including cited the biblical accounts and the unsubstantiated theory with regard to the Jews, the long list of various names does not come even close to answer the question here: whether the Mongol Empire has left any cultural legacy to the world at large that is ascertainable and specifically identifiable in the sense that the Hebrew, Greek and Roman contributions can be individually or collectively ascertained and identified.
The fact that few examples have been found so far seems to suggest that the point initially raised by GZ is not invalid.
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/19/2008
废名的文煞是好看。一个具体问题。你双肩背包装着沉甸甸的东西骑马,那一颠起来,
惯性很大,挺危险的,怎么不把东西固定在马的类似自行车后架或前筐之类的地方?
也许这个问题很愚蠢:) - posted on 09/19/2008
The story ends a bit abruptly and appears that it has left out many unsaid. But I guess it's a good sign if others also feel the same way.
I enjoyed the whole story, especially the part relating to the oral culture that is still vibrantly alive there whereas oral tradition in many parts of the world is quickly disappearing or has already been displaced by fixed media (printing, recording, etc.).
Again, a very nice piece of work! Look forward to seeing it in print somewhere soon.
废名 wrote:
在天和云很低的地方(尾声) - Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/19/2008
我去过呼和浩特的自然博物馆,他们的恐龙标本展室设计得特别好:全是土地,不铺
砖或水泥,中间一个巨坑,恐龙骨架就立在坑里,象是刚被挖出来的样子。参观者
就站在边上俯视恐龙。
废名活得真潇洒啊,豪放派婉约派都齐了。
xw wrote:
蒙古恐龙化石是很有名的。当年美国考古学家就最先在那里发现恐龙
蛋化石,中美考古学家联合行动,还发现了北京人,山顶洞等。
- posted on 09/20/2008
there is no basket on the horse back, and the way I put my back pack on is the best way to make the horse run faster , because I can lean forward and stand up a bit so the horse run faster without carrying all the weight directly.
thank you for reading, there are no foolish questions concerning normads, I learn a lot from them, including how to deal with horses.
3mw wrote:
废名的文煞是好看。一个具体问题。你双肩背包装着沉甸甸的东西骑马,那一颠起来,
惯性很大,挺危险的,怎么不把东西固定在马的类似自行车后架或前筐之类的地方?
也许这个问题很愚蠢:) - posted on 09/20/2008
sorry to cut the story short since I have to work on something urgent, but I think it is good if many feel the same way, because they are not fed up by my story yet:)
however, I will post more pictures including some paintings here, which might tell a bit
things unsaid.
A magazine show interest in this story,I will submit it. Agian, thank you for the inputs, your encouragment had kept me busy though:)
风子 wrote:
The story ends a bit abruptly and appears that it has left out many unsaid. But I guess it's a good sign if others also feel the same way.
I enjoyed the whole story, especially the part relating to the oral culture that is still vibrantly alive there whereas oral tradition in many parts of the world is quickly disappearing or has already been displaced by fixed media (printing, recording, etc.).
Again, a very nice piece of work! Look forward to seeing it in print somewhere soon.
废名 wrote:
在天和云很低的地方(尾声) - posted on 09/20/2008
thanks susan, you only see me having good time, you don't see me doing the hard labor and suffering:)
Susan wrote:
我去过呼和浩特的自然博物馆,他们的恐龙标本展室设计得特别好:全是土地,不铺
砖或水泥,中间一个巨坑,恐龙骨架就立在坑里,象是刚被挖出来的样子。参观者
就站在边上俯视恐龙。
废名活得真潇洒啊,豪放派婉约派都齐了。
xw wrote:
蒙古恐龙化石是很有名的。当年美国考古学家就最先在那里发现恐龙
蛋化石,中美考古学家联合行动,还发现了北京人,山顶洞等。
- Re: 蒙古游记(2)posted on 09/20/2008
面具、唐卡壁画和挂毯, 喇嘛教传入蒙古后,对其文化影响很大。
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/20/2008
废名的叙事帖子总是又香又长:) 趁着周末才一口气读完,唉,中蒙友谊的源远流长今后就靠你维系了啦:)) 我印象中读过蒙古议会举行过五十多次投票,强烈要求回到祖国的怀抱,但北京就从不表态,你的朋友一定知道内情吧?估计我看的网文是误传。
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/21/2008
woa tried to put me on the spot:) - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/21/2008
在特若尔碣的河谷,骑着一匹白马飞奔了两个小时,在如画的河谷中飞奔,马蹄不停溅起浪花,身体随着马起伏,其畅快程度比做爱感觉都好。
我对这段感兴趣。
废名还是第一次让我惊讶。:)))
写得太短了。看来在美国,还是挣钱第一?
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/21/2008
不完全是挣钱,其实我想我有些工作狂(在努力克服中)。
写了一万多字, 你们还嫌短:)? 比起我平时的帖子够长了。
考虑后来的旅程主要在城市,参观博物馆议会还跟无家可归的人
聊天,恐怕大家兴趣没有对前面那么大。抱歉结束得太早,可是你们如果要看
艳遇,向毛主席保证,此行真的没有:)
放上骑马的河谷,以及蒙古姑娘照片, 以飨青冈等尚意犹未尽的诸位。 - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/21/2008
- posted on 09/22/2008
我一时好奇,废名就不必回答了。
周末也趁机恶补了一下元蒙历史,几个有趣的要点:
1. 把所有历史包袱笼统塞给成吉思汗很容易搅乱视线。除了汉化的忽必烈,其他有名的几个大汗帝国,钦查汗国缘于他的长子术赤,位居乌兹别克一带,有的中文书上称金帐汗,威尔斯的书上叫Kipchak,有教材又称Batu Khan,就是后来坐吃莫斯科公国税贡的Golden Horde,基本保留了游牧本性;另外一个由次子在伊犁地区建立的察合台汗,又名Great Turkey;忽必烈的兄弟旭烈兀在波斯的伊尔汗,才是最大的反文明份子,彻底摧毁了美索不达米亚的灿烂文化。十四世纪的帖木儿又后来居上,打着成吉思汗的旗帜,以搭建人头塔著名,横扫小亚细亚的土耳其, 间接延续了拜占庭的寿命,但他的蒙古血缘来自母亲一系。
2. 蒙古铁骑对西方的征服不完全靠蛮力,西征路上往往以少胜多。成吉思汗本人颁布了几千条法令,直到1309年武宗才废除,相对的是,以法治军在拿破仑以前的欧洲可以称作一个笑话。成吉思汗最鼎盛时,蒙古军队也只有十来万,东征西伐主要靠被征服的当地人,忽必烈登汗位后,手下蒙古军队就七八万人,灭宋完全靠汉人为主。
3. 忽必烈非常器重文天祥,还派了宋恭帝去劝降,甚至许愿他蒙古宰相,但文天祥置民族大团结而不顾,声称“大宋宰相安能事二姓”,主动请死。忽必烈思虑再三后,才听从朝廷大臣的上奏,准予死刑。文天祥追随的终极价值,放到当下社会来看应该有所变异吧?
- posted on 09/22/2008
老瓦心得很好,这次蒙古之行有同感,对照历史事实和人们的一般看法,感到还是有差距。
成吉思汗不是只知道弯弓射大雕,还是有一定治理能力的。另外滥杀无辜是在初期,后来他们
也使用“以夷治夷“的方式。
关于蒙古回归中国的事情, 我真的不知道内情。 是有部分南戈壁省的议员提出过,但有多少 民意基础不知道。 乌兰巴托市内商业标识有俄文英文,但没有中文,好像不允许。中国劳工到蒙古好像也受到限制,好像 一年两万个 。
蒙古夹在中俄两国之间,如同波兰群体心理中有被吞并的恐惧,同时,大国之间在那里也有较力。所以对这个问题我真的说不出什么insightful的看法。
最近又一部蒙古片子:Mongol? 写成吉思汗的 , 不知道 有谁看过,准备找来 看一下。据说基本尊重历史的。 - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/22/2008
最近又一部蒙古片子:Mongol? 写成吉思汗的 , 不知道 有谁看过,准备找来 看一下。君说基本尊重历史的。
讲成吉思汗早期的故事,从童年讲起,强调多难的经历,和倔强的性格。最后非常简略地提到他统一蒙古的战争。可惜影片不包括任何他以后征服欧亚的故事, - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/22/2008
谢管仲介绍, 将找来一看。
感觉蒙古人的成功 离不开契丹政治家诗人耶律楚才的辅助。他曾经在辽灭了后遁入空门
当了三年和尚。后来被成吉思汗请出来,当政三十年。鼓励异族休养生息。
下面是一首耶律楚才的诗:
鹧鸪天·题七真洞
花界倾颓事已迁,浩歌遥望意茫然。江山王气空千劫,桃李春风又一年。 横翠嶂、架寒烟,野花平碧怨啼鹃。不知何限人间梦,共触沉思到酒边。
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
读了若干有关成吉思汗以及元朝的文献和书籍,感觉在中国的文献中涉及成吉思汗并蒙古军队残暴的
描述相对要少,谴责的基调也没有那么强烈,而在西方英文的文献中,记载成吉思汗残暴的文献
就相对多些(当然, 也不乏为他翻案或解释的文字, 如这条线上浮生介绍的)。
是否双方都有所偏差呢?just curious - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
嗯,照我看,蒙元成为天朝正统朝代后写史者不无顾忌。为尊者韪的传统也不是自蒙元才开始的。
废名 wrote:
读了若干有关成吉思汗以及元朝的文献和书籍,感觉在中国的文献中涉及成吉思汗并蒙古军队残暴的
描述相对要少,谴责的基调也没有那么强烈,而在西方英文的文献中,记载成吉思汗残暴的文献
就相对多些(当然, 也不乏为他翻案或解释的文字, 如这条线上浮生介绍的)。
是否双方都有所偏差呢?just curious - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
为尊者讳在蒙元历史中似乎表现更为明显。焚书坑儒,扬州十日、嘉定三屠,都有详细记载。 而压倒宋朝最后一棵草的崖山之战,双方出动兵力超过五十万, 战舰两千艘,最后漂浮在水面上尸体超过十万。而对这一著名惨烈战役, 记载很少,笔墨都花在左丞相陆秀夫背着少帝蹈海死亡上。也许写史者对成吉思汗征战世界俱有荣焉? - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
feiming wrote:
为尊者讳在蒙元历史中似乎表现更为明显。焚书坑儒,扬州十日、嘉定三屠,都有详细记载。
我恍惚记得扬州十日、嘉定三屠是留学生从日本保留的文献里找出来的。难道我记错了? - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
两书的作者 王秀楚和朱子素,都是屠杀的幸存者/亲历者, 书出来之后,
被清朝禁止发行。 辗转到了日本,后来 由革命党传回中国, 所以,作者与日本人无关。
对《扬州十日记〉的史实的准确性,史界有质疑,但毕竟详尽描写了当时
惨烈。 - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
谢! - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/23/2008
feiming wrote:
为尊者讳在蒙元历史中似乎表现更为明显。焚书坑儒,扬州十日、嘉定三屠,都有详细记载。 而压倒宋朝最后一棵草的崖山之战,双方出动兵力超过五十万, 战舰两千艘,最后漂浮在水面上尸体超过十万。而对这一著名惨烈战役, 记载很少,笔墨都花在左丞相陆秀夫背着少帝蹈海死亡上。也许写史者对成吉思汗征战世界俱有荣焉?
崖山之战废名能否给详细介绍一下?不知有多少平民百姓被杀?外国史籍记载蒙古人的残暴,主要是滥杀无辜。HULAGU血洗巴格达数十万平民成为刀下怨魂。 - posted on 09/23/2008
正好也在读历史。种族战争的残酷在历史上大概很普遍,比如罗马人消灭迦太基人的布匿战争也很残酷。
百度百科:
祥兴二年(1279年),元将张弘范大举进攻赵昺朝廷。后来在不久以前攻占广州的西夏后裔李恒也带领援军也加入战事。宋军兵力号称20多万,实际其中十数万为文官、宫女、太监和其他非战斗人员,各类船只千余艘;元军张弘范和李恒也有近十万人,战船数百艘。这时宋军中有建议认为应该先占领海湾出口,保护向西方的撤退路线。张世杰为防止士兵逃亡,否决建议,并下令尽焚陆地上的宫殿、房屋、据点;又将下令千多艘宋军船只以“连环船”的办法用大绳索一字形连贯在海湾内,并且安排赵昺的“龙舟”放在军队中间。元军以小船载茅草和膏脂,乘风纵火冲向宋船。但宋船皆涂泥,并在每条船上横放一根长木,以抵御元军的火攻。元朝水师火攻不成,以水师封锁海湾,又以陆军断绝宋军汲水及砍柴的道路。宋军吃干粮十余日,饮海水之士兵呕泄。张世杰率苏刘义和方兴日大战元军,张弘范擒张世杰甥韩某,以其向张世杰三次招降不果。
二月六日癸未,张弘范预备猛攻,元军中有建议先用火炮,弘范认为火炮打乱宋军的一字阵型,令其容易撤退。明日,张弘范将其军分成四份,宋军的东、南、北三面皆驻一军;弘范自领一军与宋军相去里余,并以奏乐为以总攻讯号。首先北军乘潮进攻宋军北边失败,李恒等顺潮而退。元军假装奏乐乐,宋军听后以为元军正在宴会,稍微松懈了。正午时段,张弘范的水师于是正面进攻,接著用布遮蔽预先建成并埋下伏兵的船楼,以鸣金为进攻讯号。各伏兵负盾俯伏,在矢雨下驶近宋船。两边船舰接近,元军鸣金撤布交战,一时间连破七艘宋船。宋师大败,元军一路打到宋军中央。这时张世杰早见大势已去,抽调精兵,并已经预先和苏刘义带领余部十余只船舰斩断大索突围而去。赵昺的船在军队中间,四十三岁的陆秀夫见无法突围,便背着8岁的赵昺跳海自杀。随行十多万军民亦相继跳海自杀。《宋史》记载七日后,十余万具尸体浮海。张世杰希望奉杨太后的名义再找宋朝赵氏后人为主,再图后举;但杨太后在听闻宋帝昺的死讯在后亦赴海自杀,张世杰将其葬在海边。不久张世杰在大风雨下溺死于平章山下(约今广东省阳江市西南的海陵岛对开海面)。
崖山之战是宋对蒙古侵略最后一次有组织的抵抗。此战之后,中国在历史上第一次完全沦陷于外族。崖山之战也是中国历史的重要的转折点。中国独立发展的进程被打断,曾经高度发达的经济、文化、科技、科举与世族相结合的官僚制度、开始受限的皇权、先进的政治制度等等都中断了,文明落后的蒙古人统治的元朝开始实行封闭、保守、轻工商业和更加集权的制度,并正式以程朱理学为科举的主要内容和政府的官方思想;而之后推翻蒙元建立的明朝又走向保守封闭的道路。不少外国的史学家将宋朝灭亡视为古典意义中国的结束,所谓崖山之后,已无中国。 - posted on 09/23/2008
管仲的资料有些内容,待我回家去翻翻书,看能否找到再补充 。不过,现在网上资料很多,并不完全经得起推敲, 我更相信印刷的书。阿拉伯学者阿特曾经说蒙古人崛起过程是世界末日,中国人(这里可能包括云南大理国等)在七十年的抵抗中被杀六千万。如果我 没有记错的话,占中国一亿多人口的一半。不过,还没有三国时惨,三国之后,中国人口就剩下几百万。
有关崖山之战的一首诗歌表示了汉人亡国灭种的悲怆:
伤心欲写崖山事,惟看东流去不回。
草木暗随忠魄吊,江淮长为节臣哀!
精神贯日华夷见,气脉连霜天地开。
耿耿中华何处是? 英灵抱帝海涛隈。
- posted on 09/24/2008
崖山之战也是中国历史的重要的转折点。中国独立发展的进程被打断,曾经高度发达的经济、文化、科技、科举与世族相结合的官僚制度、开始受限的皇权、先进的政治制度等等都中断了,文明落后的蒙古人统治的元朝开始实行封闭、保守、轻工商业和更加集权的制度,并正式以程朱理学为科举的主要内容和政府的官方思想;而之后推翻蒙元建立的明朝又走向保守封闭的道路。不少外国的史学家将宋朝灭亡视为古典意义中国的结束,所谓崖山之后,已无中国。
从宋到明,不过元代一百年,但不仅是普通的王朝更替,更是古典中国的中断?这个观点对我来说也新鲜。 - posted on 09/24/2008
以下是《宋史〉有关崖山记载,再探再报。
第47卷:“(德佑十六年)二月戊寅朔,世杰部将陈宝降。己卯,都统张达以夜袭大军营,亡失甚众。癸未,有黑气出山西。李恒乘早潮退攻其北,世杰以淮兵殊死战。至午潮上,张弘范攻其南,南北受敌,兵士皆疲不能战。俄有一舟樯旗仆,诸舟之樯旗遂皆仆。世杰知事去,乃抽精兵入中军。诸军溃,翟国秀及团练使刘俊等解甲降。大军至中军,会暮,且风雨,昏雾四塞,咫尺不相辨。世杰乃与苏刘义断维,以十余舟夺港而去,陆秀夫走卫王舟,王舟大,且诸舟环结,度不得出走,乃负昺投海中,后宫及诸臣多从死者,七日,浮尸出于海十余万人。杨太后闻昺死,抚膺大恸曰:“我忍死艰关至此者,正为赵氏一块肉尔,今无望矣!”遂赴海死,世杰葬之海滨,已而世杰亦自溺死。宋遂亡。”
" 至元十四年,大軍圍昰於海上。明年四月,昰卒,昺代立。十六年春二月,昺投海死,妃聞之大慟,曰:「我艱關忍死者,正為趙氏祭祀尚有可望爾,今天命至此,夫復何言!」遂赴海死。其將張世傑葬之海濱" 。
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 09/24/2008
这是宋方出动战舰上千艘的宋史记载。
閏月庚戌,王道夫棄廣州遁。壬戌,淩震遁。癸亥,大軍入廣州。十二月壬午,王道夫攻廣州,兵敗被執。淩震兵繼至,亦敗。文天祥走海豐,壬寅,被執於五坡嶺。震兵又敗於芰塘。大軍破南安縣,守將李梓發死之。
十六年正月壬戌,張弘範兵至崖山。庚午,李恒兵亦來會。世傑以舟師碇海中,棋結巨艦千餘艘,中艫外舳,貫以大索,四周起樓棚如城堞,居昺其中。大軍攻之,艦堅不動。又以舟載茅,沃以膏脂,乘風縱火焚之。艦皆塗泥,縛長木以拒火舟,火不能爇。
- posted on 09/24/2008
gz wrote:
正好也在读历史。种族战争的残酷在历史上大概很普遍,比如罗马人消灭迦太基人的布匿战争也很残酷。
崖山之战中的元军统帅张弘范,与交战的宋军首领张世杰其实是族兄弟,其父子三代都深得忽必烈赏识,所以战场拼杀也是三军用命。
回国时在合川登钓鱼城,所谓的欧亚战局转折,就是蒙哥汗在此被石头击中身亡后,蒙军从此放弃了第三次西征。当时攻城的元军汉将李德辉,对守城的宋将张珏有一番著名的劝降书:“君之为臣,不亲于宋之子孙;合之为州,不大于宋之天下。彼子孙已举天下而归我,汝犹偃然负阻穷山,而曰忠于所事,不亦惑乎?” 不少道理也自在其中。
钓鱼城保卫战从窝阔台入川开始,前后三十六年,一直坚持到南宋灭亡的同一年春天,为小朝廷争取了不少喘息时间。当时城里的数千居民五面被围数年,史书有“易子而食”的记载,其惨烈可能不亚于种族屠戮。
- posted on 09/24/2008
查阅有关蒙古资料,对中文的历史书有些失望, 尤其是《宋史〉语焉不详不说(战争投入兵力伤亡人数不交待), 还老是文以载道, 发议论太多,还将《易经〉混入,论证当时黑气上升 气数尽的不可抗拒等歪理。
请教一位资深历史专家,迄今最好的两部有关蒙古的著作都是外国人写的。
一部是波斯人志费尼的《世界征服者史〉有吴有刚的中译本。志费尼不像中国学者在书房中修历史 过于强调战报奏章和宫廷对话(其实这里面水分很大,战报奏章多因邀功或者瞒祸而夸张, 宫廷对话更是因为政治斗争的复杂而不真实)。这志费尼四处旅行,很多资料都是旅途中采集到的,因此十分详实,是最权威的一部有关蒙古崛起的著作。
另外一部是英国人著的 地缘政治学巨著《俄国.蒙古. 中国〉(四卷)(商务1981 有翻译本)。
此外,关于崖山之战最详细的文艺作品是日本小说家田中芳树写的《海啸〉(台湾出过翻译本)
还有一部著作也比中国正史翔实,是赛金花丈夫洪均编译的《元史译文证补》, 主要资料来自俄国中东和其他西方著作 。
sorry Tar, this is how far I can go at this point - posted on 09/25/2008
Thanks feiming. Appreciated your effort. ;-)
I will dig up the Empires of the Steppes over the weekend to see if it has anything to say about this battle.
feiming wrote:
查阅有关蒙古资料,对中文的历史书有些失望, 尤其是《宋史〉语焉不详不说(战争投入兵力伤亡人数不交待), 还老是文以载道, 发议论太多,还将《易经〉混入,论证当时黑气上升 气数尽的不可抗拒等歪理。
请教一位资深历史专家,迄今最好的两部有关蒙古的著作都是外国人写的。
一部是波斯人志费尼的《世界征服者史〉有吴有刚的中译本。志费尼不像中国学者在书房中修历史 过于强调战报奏章和宫廷对话(其实这里面水分很大,战报奏章多因邀功或者瞒祸而夸张, 宫廷对话更是因为政治斗争的复杂而不真实)。这志费尼四处旅行,很多资料都是旅途中采集到的,因此十分详实,是最权威的一部有关蒙古崛起的著作。
另外一部是英国人著的 地缘政治学巨著《俄国.蒙古. 中国〉(四卷)(商务1981 有翻译本)。
此外,关于崖山之战最详细的文艺作品是日本小说家田中芳树写的《海啸〉(台湾出过翻译本)
还有一部著作也比中国正史翔实,是赛金花丈夫洪均编译的《元史译文证补》, 主要资料来自俄国中东和其他西方著作 。
sorry Tar, this is how far I can go at this point - posted on 11/07/2008
今天才慢慢读完,诗,文,图都好,令人遐想.
废名的诗可读到父辈之风.庄严浪漫深沉.
很喜欢这句话:在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
想起风吹草低见牛羊.
也很喜欢蒙古人的散漫.
感觉这样吃饭才叫吃饭:)
还有那匹头马,很美,也有点忧郁.它眼睛看见的也许人却看不见.
废名 wrote:蒙古是散漫的,人们不看钟表而看太阳和月亮,吃饭高兴时吃三小时,不高兴三十分钟解决。
在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
--漫记蒙古(1)
- posted on 11/07/2008
feiming wrote:
内蒙古也去过, 同外蒙差别还是很大的。乌兰巴托尚落后,似大陆八十年代,但草原和山里自然环境比大陆好很多。 我想主要 是人少,一百五十万平方公里,人口才二百五十多万,而且一百万居住在乌兰巴托, 地广人稀环境自然好。
至于送年轻女子过夜, 哈,想都没想过, 怎么,八十一子在大陆考察河流时误入过爱河:)?
八十一子 wrote:
光到外蒙,没去内蒙?我想,比较一下应该会很有意思。
没有送你一个青年女子过夜么?"-)
忘了在哪里读到的多年前的蒙古游记里说,远方客人在蒙古包过夜时,有的主人家会送个青年女子来陪同,该女子也很乐意。 :-)
我想,这可能是人烟稀少的地方的民族扩大基因库的一个方法。跟岛民欢迎水手差不多的道理。 - posted on 11/09/2008
这么久了还有人读这篇东西,而且是写诗的华,感到有些受宠若惊,谢谢华阅读。
不瞒你说,在回来后倒时差的一个星期, 我的食量甚大,一天半夜睡不着起来
煮了一只农场买来的野放鸡,竟然看着电视,不知不觉中给全吃完了,看满茶几的鸡骨头,
我自己也大吃一惊,我也成了蒙古人了!?:)
华 wrote:
今天才慢慢读完,诗,文,图都好,令人遐想.
废名的诗可读到父辈之风.庄严浪漫深沉.
很喜欢这句话:在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
想起风吹草低见牛羊.
也很喜欢蒙古人的散漫.
感觉这样吃饭才叫吃饭:)
还有那匹头马,很美,也有点忧郁.它眼睛看见的也许人却看不见.
废名 wrote:蒙古是散漫的,人们不看钟表而看太阳和月亮,吃饭高兴时吃三小时,不高兴三十分钟解决。
在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
--漫记蒙古(1)
- posted on 11/09/2008
看来八十一子不看到一些荤的不能放了我:)那就告诉一点儿线索给你。 蒙古的城市姑娘目前
流行低腰裤, 而且腰低得超过任何其他国家,我在那里的广场照雕塑的时候,不小心将一
排低腰裤摄入镜头, 低得无法将照片放在咖啡,如果放上, 就有伤风化了:)
八十一子 wrote:
feiming wrote:忘了在哪里读到的多年前的蒙古游记里说,远方客人在蒙古包过夜时,有的主人家会送个青年女子来陪同,该女子也很乐意。 :-)
内蒙古也去过, 同外蒙差别还是很大的。乌兰巴托尚落后,似大陆八十年代,但草原和山里自然环境比大陆好很多。 我想主要 是人少,一百五十万平方公里,人口才二百五十多万,而且一百万居住在乌兰巴托, 地广人稀环境自然好。
至于送年轻女子过夜, 哈,想都没想过, 怎么,八十一子在大陆考察河流时误入过爱河:)?
八十一子 wrote:
光到外蒙,没去内蒙?我想,比较一下应该会很有意思。
没有送你一个青年女子过夜么?"-)
我想,这可能是人烟稀少的地方的民族扩大基因库的一个方法。跟岛民欢迎水手差不多的道理。 - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 11/09/2008
放吧,让我们开开眼界。伤不伤风化让网管们决定。:)蒙古姑娘长得很大气,味道特别正,男人也是,少有汉人那样贼眉鼠眼的。:-)
好游记,希望在不远的将来也能去蒙古。 - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 11/09/2008
哈哈,我成了蒙古旅游促进会的义工了,现在组团,至少有小曼和若之报名。
我很想再返蒙古,可能明年夏或者后年夏天, 一定让你们知道。 我的
朋友若能当选, 起码可以免费参观下总统府。
对了,照片,想不到若之如此开明, 不愧王小波专家(even though, he is
not my cup of tea:) . 上照片倒不担心咖啡网管,他们比我开放(起码老瓦
马雅是这样),就是图片不够美, 照的角度不好,担心影响蒙古妇女的形象,
暂时作罢,如果你来DC reading, 届时可以给你看 - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 11/09/2008
贴吧贴吧,我的技术都敢拿出来丢人现眼,照片里连美女影子都没有:)) - Re: 蒙古游记(3)posted on 11/09/2008
贴吧,副班长都发话了,要是还不肯就给我发过来吧:)废名我也报名蒙古团啊,你不是要组娘子军吧? - posted on 11/10/2008
feiming这样讲,我反而吃了一惊,可能我太落后了:)
发言不够.我读书时也很少发言,经常被班干部批评帮助:)
咖啡的诗,文,评特别是原创的,我都爱读.读大家的评论,很有趣.
张爱玲说,看见别人写了比自己的更好,就不说了.
我深有同感,觉得自己也说不好,那就安安静静地读.或者听.
你写的北大荒,父亲,吵菜的诗,在美国落脚的中国荷花,竹林....
还有开车的险情,也祝平安.
这样吃法,随心所欲.看起来好痛快.
feiming wrote:
这么久了还有人读这篇东西,而且是写诗的华,感到有些受宠若惊,谢谢华阅读。
不瞒你说,在回来后倒时差的一个星期, 我的食量甚大,一天半夜睡不着起来
煮了一只农场买来的野放鸡,竟然看着电视,不知不觉中给全吃完了,看满茶几的鸡骨头,
我自己也大吃一惊,我也成了蒙古人了!?:)
华 wrote:
今天才慢慢读完,诗,文,图都好,令人遐想.
废名的诗可读到父辈之风.庄严浪漫深沉.
很喜欢这句话:在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
想起风吹草低见牛羊.
也很喜欢蒙古人的散漫.
感觉这样吃饭才叫吃饭:)
还有那匹头马,很美,也有点忧郁.它眼睛看见的也许人却看不见.
废名 wrote:蒙古是散漫的,人们不看钟表而看太阳和月亮,吃饭高兴时吃三小时,不高兴三十分钟解决。
在 天 和 云 很 低 的 地 方
--漫记蒙古(1)
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 11/11/2008
仔细看了照片,自我审查一下,还是不能上,让诸位失望了:)因为照片是在是无意之中照的,到不是因为暴露太多, 而是角度不好看。
不过,为了飨诸位好奇,上一个伊壁保镖的照片。如果娘子军团出征蒙古, 身手不凡的他可以担任
导游及保镖,何如? - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 11/12/2008
Great writing and also an interesting discussion thread. I read the "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" by Jack Weatherford. It opened my eyes. Strongly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Genghis-Khan-Making-Modern-World/dp/0609809644/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226505181&sr=8-1 - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 05/25/2009
- Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 05/25/2009
yes, he did it! - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 05/25/2009
看来不管是少数党还是少数裔,读了哈佛都可能做国家元首。
废名下次访问蒙古,就是总统的座上客了。不知能否通融一下,让邓玉娇去蒙古避难?
废名 wrote:
yes, he did it! - Re: 蒙古游记(尾声)posted on 05/26/2009
如果风子同去蒙古,可以当面陈情:)
其实中国不缺人才乃至哈佛毕业生,缺的是被太多聪明人所鄙夷的良知和道德勇气。
风子 wrote:
看来不管是少数党还是少数裔,读了哈佛都可能做国家元首。
废名下次访问蒙古,就是总统的座上客了。不知能否通融一下,让邓玉娇去蒙古避难?
废名 wrote:
yes, he did it! - posted on 05/26/2009
哈哈,sounds like a plan. Look forward to it.
Cannot agree with you more on your second point.
废名 wrote:
如果风子同去蒙古,可以当面陈情:)
其实中国不缺人才乃至哈佛毕业生,缺的是被太多聪明人所鄙夷的良知和道德勇气。
风子 wrote:
看来不管是少数党还是少数裔,读了哈佛都可能做国家元首。
废名下次访问蒙古,就是总统的座上客了。不知能否通融一下,让邓玉娇去蒙古避难?
废名 wrote:
yes, he did it! - posted on 05/26/2009
刚看到游记,钩起了我一段“尘封”的往事,随便聊两句。没去过外蒙,但96年夏天在呼和浩特郊区的一个兵营军训了一个月,感觉内蒙跟外蒙还是很像的。与其让外蒙回归,不如让内蒙也随了外蒙去,人家才是一家人。内蒙的天也特别低,白天的白云仿佛伸手可得,夜空里的繁星也是内地少见的,辽阔的寂静,“不敢高声语,恐惊天上人”。
那时的锡林郭勒草原已经开始荒芜了,有的荒地上能有一汪汪水,就能饮牛羊。我们坐着连长的北京吉普2020在草原上奔驰很远,才能看到一个蒙古包,皮肤黝黑性情爽朗的蒙族大妈把为女儿出嫁准备的绣花袍子拿出来给我们挨个儿臭美,她们不会说汉语,但女人么,好像也不说什么也唧唧嘎嘎的欢笑起来。
我不敢骑马,一起军训的有从新疆来的维族小伙子,好像名叫阿克木,人高马大,骑着高头大马任意驰骋简直帅呆了。维族人比汉族人开放,我们一杆人席地闲聊,他会把头枕在我的腿上,唱新疆的街头汉语情歌,思念他远方的女朋友。歌词我都还隐约记得几句:“一天的黄昏,在咖啡店里,我没有带钱,你代我付了”,呵呵。
经过一个月的军训,我们跟部队的指战员结下了深厚的情谊,那个只有20岁不到的小排长,泪汪汪的大眼睛,那个比女人还细心的排长,亲切和蔼的老政委,威武神明的团长,都哭得一蹋糊涂。之后又过了两年吧,我忽然被弄到一个城乡结合部的县城“锻炼”,跟老乡们打成一片,坐在卡车斗里去山上栽树,视察养猪场和养鸡场,忽有一日收到一封没有落款地址的来信,打开后是张贺卡,上面写“你还记得我吗?想念你的连长”。这连长一定是给班上每一个人都发了信,奇怪的是他怎么知道我的地址。
跑题了。大概是在99年吧,我又偶然间去了一趟内蒙,借住在一个农民家里,草原荒得更厉害了,许多牧民改种田成了农民,牛羊也越来越少,饲养成本非常高,完全是赔本生意,地方上的村干部贪污腐败盛行,人民生活很苦,很苦。村子里的赤脚医生外号“王三针”,不管什么病,打上三针先锋霉素。借住家里的大姐甭管哪儿疼,大把往口里咽止疼片。
热爱草原的蒙古人,生活应该好一些了吧,现在。
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