http://www.financeun.com/Chistory/news/2007108/20071081506064041_0.shtml
强国梦下的狂热:德国人为何选举希特勒当总理
现代德国文明的一个显著特点就是诉诸理性。但在上世纪30-40年代,整个德意志民族都卷入了纳粹的战争,导致了德国和人类文明史上一场空前的浩劫。
“以追求强国为起点,以落得虚弱兼分裂的国家而终结”,再一次地证明了这样一个真理:一个大国如果任由民族主义情绪泛滥,一味地激发民族仇恨心理,却又缺乏民主和保护自由抗争的机制,这一定会导致本国甚至是全世界的浩劫。
■德国民众的“强国梦”与纳粹政府
从19世纪起,德意志经济社会发展明显落后于英、法等国,这刺激出德国人对国家强大的期盼和“落后就要挨打”的焦虑,由此逐渐形成了德意志必须强大的民族共识。第一次世界大战后,按照《凡尔塞和约》的规定,战败的德国被解除了军备,民族屈辱、经济萧条、社会混乱交互作用,让骄傲的德意志民族更加渴望实现“强国梦”。而希特勒的纳粹党,敏感地把握住了这种国民心态,适时提出了“修改《凡尔塞和约》、收回失去的领土,把相信国家主义和社会主义的人联想起来,团结整个德意志民族”的宗旨,并允诺要尽快改变战后军工企业停产造成的大量工人失业以及恶性通货膨胀的局面。这在当时的不少德国人看来,简直就是使德国摆脱困境的良方。1928年后的几次选举结果表明,越来越多的德国人把纳粹党视为解决德国社会主要问题、实现德意志民族强盛的希望。纳粹党在1932年的选举中大胜,希特勒由此获得了组阁大权。
取得执政地位后的希特勒和纳粹党,用国家(民族)社会主义将国家再魔法化,第三帝国吞噬了市民社会,实现了国家与社会的合一,在“决断论”基础上建立了一个全权主义的国家。这在当时的德国几乎没有遭遇什么反对。在上上下下充斥着民族主义狂热的时候,通过建立一个强大的现代国家以迅速实现德国的复兴,很轻易地就成为了德国人最大的共识。有了这样的共识,纳粹宣传的所谓“德国民族共同体”的概念一下子就俘获了民众的心,为了国家经济发展、一圆“强国梦”,以牺牲思想自由和个人政治意识为代价也是可以接受的。正因为如此,纳粹的消灭异己思想、反犹太人和反共的罪行,也就容易在复兴民族主义的旗下被德国人容忍。
■希特勒的“三把火”
希特勒把新官上任“三把火”中的第一把火,烧向了失业现象。上台后的第三天,他就在广播电台发表《告德意志国民书》,声称政府要“拯救德意志的农民,维持给养和生存基础!拯救德意志的工人,向失业展开一场大规模的全面进攻!”在纳粹当局的努力下,到1938年,德国失业率降到了1.3%,而同期美国失业率为1.89%,英国为8.1%,这样对比一下,纳粹党宣传自己“创造了消灭失业的经济奇迹”,还真不全是在自吹自擂。
希特勒上任后的第二把火,烧向了德国几乎陷于停顿的经济状态,宣称要尽快让德国经济发动机高速并持续地运转起来。从1932年到1937年,德国的国民生产总值增长了102%,国民收入也增加了一倍。这些实在的数据表明:纳粹当局的确在不长的时间里,创造了德国经济复兴的奇迹。
希特勒对内烧的第三把火,是重建社会保障体系、落实社会福利政策。希特勒上台后大力推选社会保险制度,增加和提高国民的社会福利,在通过“劳动美化活动”来改善工人的劳动条件和劳动环境的同时,还扩大了职工的有薪休假制度。纳粹的属下工会劳动阵线,在疗养胜地鲁根岛等地,修建了一批疗养院和旅馆。仅1937年1年内,全德就约有1000万工人享受到了这项福利。
如果说希特勒上任后对内烧的“三把火”,让除了犹太人之外的大多数普通德国人得到了实惠,因而在政治上支持拥戴纳粹当局的话,希特勒对外也烧的“三把火”迅速崛起成为世界大国。这让德国人自信心和民族自豪感都大大增强,更加坚定地支持希特勒和纳粹党。
希特勒对外烧的第一把火是秘密重整军备。在短短的几年时间里,就使德国的空军力量超过英国,陆军力量也超过法国。
对外希特勒烧的第二把火,是收复失地和和平扩张。根据1919年6月28日签订的凡尔赛和约,战败的德国一共丧失了拥有7325000人口的73485平方公里的国土,莱茵河地区则被“凡尔赛和约”和“洛迦诺公约”明确规定为“非军事地带”。希特勒上台后,经过一番折冲,不仅收回了萨尔地区、派兵占领了莱茵非军事区,而且在1938年3月让奥地利“回归”德国后,又把有350万人口的捷克苏台德地区纳入了德国版图
希特勒对外烧的第三把火,则是通过举办1936年柏林奥运会,以最隆重的仪式,在德国人面前向全世界宣告了德国的重新崛起。希特勒亲自担任柏林奥委会大会总裁。他下令用16吨铜铸了一座奥林匹克巨钟,建筑了一座高达70米的希特勒钟塔,建了一座能容纳10万人的运动场,建了一个可容纳2万名观众的游泳池,并修建了比美国洛杉矶奥运会更豪华的奥运村,1936年8月1日,在德国柏林举行第11届奥林匹克运动会开幕式上,希特勒宣布开幕。会场上飘扬着纳粹旗帜,德国运动员通过主席台时,行纳粹礼,高呼“**———希特勒!”德国第一次通过电视播放了奥运会比赛盛况。在这次奥运会上,德国获金牌33枚、银牌26枚、铜牌30枚,拿了世界第一。通过举办奥运会,希特勒为自己塑造了一个和平英武的政治家形象
希特勒上任后的内外“三把火”,烧得如此漂亮,表明德国在希特勒独裁之下的确曾经取得了一些卓越成就。德国人当然有理由为身边这些看得见摸得着的成就而自豪。特别是希特勒个人生活方式又如此地简朴,是个素食者,不喝酒、不抽烟更不闹绯闻,让不少德国人感动得简直要用高尚纯洁来形容元首了。至少到1939年,在大多数德国人眼里,希特勒已经是仁慈有为的统治者,甚至可以说是德国的大救星了
但已被迷惑了的德国人忘了,希特勒虽然不喜欢在个人生活上挥霍纳税人的钱财,但他从来不怕多流纳税人的血。在《我的奋斗》一书,希特勒早就透露过他的长远扩张计划,引导德国走向战争是他必然的选择。而后的事态发展证明,那是一条德国的通往毁灭之路。
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
说得确实。伊朗也是民选政府。民选总统上台也不能确定就不喊“把以色列从地图上抹去”的豪言壮语。:)
将德国整体的罪孽强加在希特勒一人的身上,想来是欧洲试图找到一种宽恕德国的政治上正确的出路。并不是现实。一个人一个党如果不正巧与当时疯狂的民性与社会现状欲望合拍,是什么也做不成了。:) - posted on 10/17/2007
希特勒和德国人现象很值得反思。我不太满意目前以英国为主流的单
面之辞,也不觉得犹太人一味田间诉苦能澄释。。。
个人感觉这是当时文明的必然。希特勒的奇迹也与他的大胆有为相辅
相承的,此发端于毕斯麦?最后异致专制。前不久看了一些两战期间
的德国艺术展,对德国一战后的处境深有感触。
希特勒一战从军,坐过监狱,有强烈带民族主义的理想精神。
那个时候,英国日不落,美国拥有了太平洋。德国那么土豆之国,还
一分再分,眼不馋口也馋。
那段时间德国的科学文化各领域都是执世界牛耳的。连奥本海默也在
德国留学吧?
再写。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
这方面的研究铺天盖地。
希特勒的德国,毛泽东的中国,说偶然是偶然,说必然是必然。
强人碰到天时地利人急,一拍即合。
墨索里尼也是民选的啊。
民选不是坏事。坏在于不能民弃。就像店里买了假货不能退。
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
touche wrote:
这方面的研究铺天盖地。
铺天盖地,只一两家之说,也是白搭。
民选不是坏事。坏在于不能民弃。就像店里买了假货不能退。
这就很英吉利嘛!
日本的掘起就是学英国的,师夷师英美:) - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
近现代政治史,不就是人们试图把自己的命运从天命里夺回来的过程?去店里买东西,你指望真货假货凭运气?
abc wrote:
不管是民选的还是不民选的,能退货的还是不能退货的,政治家常常是异人, 有过人的才智与特质. 一个国家掌握在这些人手里,人民是祸是福真有好多天命的成分.
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
touche wrote:
近现代政治史,不就是人们试图把自己的命运从天命里夺回来的过程?去店里买东西,你指望真货假货凭运气?
在美国的那段时间,最愉快的感受之一是买东西可随便退货. 虽然实际上没退过,但心情愉快.
- posted on 10/17/2007
即使是二十世纪,如果有一段时间,有一群个体,不情愿,或者不配
,或者说被人逼迫而不能退货,这也是不得已。
(中东挨揍的都是“民主”国家,倒偏偏是王国受青睐。)
希特勒是个强人。小罗斯福也不退货的:)
记得古希腊的海军功臣Aristides,Themistocles等虽在波希战争中为
雅典赢得盟主地位,后来都遭到民众放逐,
久而久之,雅典就不及斯巴达,就更不是罗马的对手了。
这里是回顾历史:
http://www.mayacafe.com/forum/topic1sp.php3?tkey=1127000524
touche wrote:
近现代政治史,不就是人们试图把自己的命运从天命里夺回来的过程?去店里买东西,你指望真货假货凭运气?
abc wrote:
不管是民选的还是不民选的,能退货的还是不能退货的,政治家常常是异人, 有过人的才智与特质. 一个国家掌握在这些人手里,人民是祸是福真有好多天命的成分.
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
Besides a return policy, it is also vital to have a clear definition of the product functions.
If you take home a washer, you expect it to wash clothes for you and that is it. That washer had better not to become an all-purpose robot which can control your TV, telephone and door locks.
- posted on 10/17/2007
Susan wrote:
Besides a return policy, it is also vital to have a clear definition of the product functions.
If you take home a washer, you expect it to wash clothes for you and that is it. That washer had better not to become an all-purpose robot which can control your TV, telephone and door locks.
Unfortunately it's never that simple and straight.
Even though you expect it's a washer - you may not be able to control who are the users. You threw in cloths only, but your kid may throw in his metal toy car, or even worse, your cat or dog. If they have a nuclear bomb, who knows what's in their mind whether they would like a try to see how robust your washing machine could be.
I guess Mr Bush wants to be a simple washer, but some people gave him a 911 and he lost his track into Iraq. He doesn't even really know who was the naughty kid so far - Bin Laden is assumed to be the heroic one. I guess if American people had known there would be a 911 waiting for the nation, nobody would ever like to cast their trust on dear President Bush.
If A Bian throws in the Taiwan Independence on Mr Hu's face, what he would like to do and what he can do? He needs to pray for his own destiny and we for the nations. So he needs a measure now to well position China into a balance point - ad hoc reaction depending on the situations at that time, instead of the rigid slogan that would doom the whole China into war even with US regardlessly - does anyone really think China got a chance in a war with US? No chance to win in the coming 30 years.
You never know who could be the user of your simple and lovely toy. And government could no way be a passive toy to serve the pleasure - it needs a vision and a true leadership, whether it's defensive like China or offensive like US. - posted on 10/17/2007
Just to state the obvious in a simplistic way, democracy has to be coupled with constitutionalism. Our current notion of a democratic system, as exemplarily implemented in the U.S. and practiced for hundreds of years, apparently subsumes constitutionalism.
Yet we need to realize that democracy and constitutionalism are two discrete concepts politically and separate systems practically; these two do not always go hand-in-hand. To the extent the two are not integrated symbiotically, social dysfunction develops. Democracy, after all, is merely a system of selecting a governing body by the governed. What is equally if not more important is the constitutionalism. Without a constitution that embraces and guarantees fundamental rights of individuals, especially of the minorities, through an independent judicial system, the much feared of "tyranny of the majority" would reign and rule, and minorities’ rights would be jeopardized. The Nazi Germany and Iran are just two such examples.
In many parts of the world, people are seeking to implement, and some have already been imposed with, a nominal democratic system whose function goes little beyond counting stacks of voting cards. One should expect little miracle out of a system like that.
However, this process, no matter how symbolic, arguably represents an elevating step towards a higher, more sophisticated and elaborate system of which constitutionalism hopefully is a welcoming integral part, genuinely believed by the drafters and religiously defended by the people.
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
Very well put!
Fengzi wrote: - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
柏拉图同志早就指出,独裁产生自垮掉的民主。 - posted on 10/17/2007
Fengzi wrote:
Fully agree. Democracy requires also due process and rule of law, as guaranteed by the constitutionalism. In addition, historically, the heart of the notion of democracy was not just a procedure for selecting governments, but what it would enable governments to do for citizens. There was a deeply-rooted belief and expectation that democratic governments would protect the integrity and dignity of individuals from all sources including from the state itself. Seen from this perspective, securing human rights in a democratic society requires checks on the power of government, equality under the law, impartial courts and tribunals, independance of judges and lawyers, and the separation of church and state. As such, the protection of human rights through the rule of law and good governance are essential purposes of democracy.
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
Very well put!
鹿希 wrote: - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
You're absolutely right.
And I'm sure this prescription is already in the receipt of our dear leader Mr. Hu Jintao. The problem is he either couldn't find a closest pharmacy to China or he would rather go with the tradintional Chinese medicine or accupuncture therapy to solve China's problems.
鹿希 wrote: - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/17/2007
- posted on 10/18/2007
令胡冲 wrote:
将德国整体的罪孽强加在希特勒一人的身上,想来是欧洲试图找到一种宽恕德国的政治上正确的出路。并不是现实。
正是如此!不能把人逼到绝路上去,英美正是汲取了一战后对德国过度盘剥反造成反弹、希特勒上台的恶果,于是而战后才把德国普通民众也当作纳粹受害者来看待,给德国民众一条出路,这样才使得战后德国重建、和平地再次崛起成为可能。(一战后老毛尚且年轻,那时他就说,德国是一个饱受帝国主义国家压迫的帝国主义国家,必将不堪压迫发出吼声,结果后来希特勒就上了台)
xw wrote:
希特勒和德国人现象很值得反思。我不太满意目前以英国为主流的单面之辞,也不觉得犹太人一味田间诉苦能澄释。。。
的确,对于很多事件的评论,由于因循着英美的价值取向而成为世界主流,从而阻碍了对历史真相的理解,(比如法国大革命什么的),,,所以很多事情不能听一面之词,还是要兼听则明,才能拨开迷雾,看清真相,,,
如果1938年希特勒就死了,我想,那很可能他将成为德国历史上最伟大的人,比俾斯麦还要伟大。 - posted on 10/18/2007
令胡冲 wrote:
将德国整体的罪孽强加在希特勒一人的身上,想来是欧洲试图找到一种宽恕德国的政治上正确的出路。并不是现实。
正是如此!不能把人逼到绝路上去,英美正是汲取了一战后对德国过度盘剥反造成反弹、希特勒上台的恶果,于是而战后才把德国普通民众也当作纳粹受害者来看待,给德国民众一条出路,这样才使得战后德国重建、和平地再次崛起成为可能。(一战后老毛尚且年轻,那时他就说,德国是一个饱受帝国主义国家压迫的帝国主义国家,必将不堪压迫发出吼声,结果后来希特勒就上了台)
xw wrote:
希特勒和德国人现象很值得反思。我不太满意目前以英国为主流的单面之辞,也不觉得犹太人一味田间诉苦能澄释。。。
的确,对于很多事件的评论,由于因循着英美的价值取向而成为世界主流,从而阻碍了对历史真相的理解,(比如法国大革命什么的),,,所以很多事情不能听一面之词,还是要兼听则明,才能拨开迷雾,看清真相,,,
如果1938年希特勒就死了,我想,那很可能他将成为德国历史上最伟大的人,比俾斯麦还要伟大。 - posted on 10/18/2007
xw wrote:
希特勒和德国人现象很值得反思。我不太满意目前以英国为主流的单面之辞,也不觉得犹太人一味田间诉苦能澄释。。。
。
以我的理解,政治的本质就是单面之辞.
恕我直言,我们的许多同胞就是受西方政治的单面之辞影响太深了,才会对中国的政治有那么多的偏见.
我对政治超喜欢,重要的原因就是, 政治家对政治十分清醒,但一定要把其人民愚昧得有偏见. 比如尼克松很清醒要与中国和好,也清醒中国是一个能够理解,能够结为伙伴的国家,但仍要在美国人民面前妖魔中国.
揭开政治的神秘外衣,用科学的方法研究政治,是社会进步的重要要求.
循着某方面政治家的公开言论去看政治,只能走向愚昧. - posted on 10/18/2007
fengzi说的好. 顶一下.
我不知道fengzi的思想是从何而来, 受谁影响, 我对此的体会是来自读美国历史后的副产品, 额外的收获. 建国初期那些人的思考,他们之间的争论和宪法的诞生很有意思. 其实, xw在cafe总提人权的重要性, 他想的深度也和fengzi的思想差不多. 我不大懂政治. 民主理论不管说的多么深奥, 其起核心的东西就是大多数原则(majority rule). 这样的原则可以作为一个国家政体的一个原则, 但不能是最根本的原则. 应该有一个原则比民主的原则更高. 否则, 少数人在一个民主(majority rule)为最高原则的国家里, 总要因为少数服从多数而受欺负吃亏.
其实, 美国的创国先父们很怕那种民主, 很怕多数人欺负少数人. 当然少数人欺负多数人的情况历史上更多,更显而易见,不用说当然也在他们的考虑之中. 所以, 他们把法国"人人平等"的口号具体实现在宪法中, 多数和少数互相不许欺负. 以此作为最高原则. 在这个原则下再玩majority rule的游戏. 所以, 当很多人说美国是世界最民主的国家时, 不管这话是褒是贬,我觉得都不对,都不是事实. 从民主的各个衡量的benchmark 上看, 美国都算不上最民主的国家. 最典型的例子就是2000年的选举. 就算布什没有争议地赢得佛州. 他的全国总人头票(不是electoral vote)仍然少于他的对手. 一个通过某一民主选举方式,但是在选举中上多数人服从了少数的国家, 是具有很大的民主,但无论如何不能说是最民主的国家.
除了理念, 老美在实际做法上也很值得借鉴. 美国人民主口号喊得凶, 民主的旗帜举的高, 但是执行起来, 却是非常理性的,稳健的. 人类社会制度的变革的历史上,有所谓的”英国经验”和”法国经验”. 前者理性, 稳重, 讲妥协. 后者激进, 讲革命. 老美是喊法国式口号(作为信念), 执行英国式的操作.
首先, 妇女没有选举权利. 可以看出其非常理性的一面. 在连学校都不收女生的社会现状下, 在99%的妇女没有受过教育基本是文盲的情况下, 你给她们选举权利, 不是在糟蹋选票吗? 这种情况下首要做的是让她们受教育, 整个社会的观念上得到解放, 而不是选票, 而这本身就需要几代人的努力.
德国希特勒的情况就是属于缺少在大多数的民主原则之上有一个更高的母原则来制止大多数人欺负少数人(或少数欺负大多数). 否则,就是希特勒被民选上台, 他也不敢迫害犹太人的, 因为他上台不违宪, 他迫害少数人违宪.
不过, 现在越来越多的人意识到了宪政的重要性. 在大陆的有识之士提出走宪政的路已经有好些年了.
电视片”走向共和”宣传的就是这些思想理念, 在老百姓中非常轰动.
Fengzi wrote:
Just to state the obvious in a simplistic way, democracy has to be coupled with constitutionalism. Our current notion of a democratic system, as exemplarily implemented in the U.S. and practiced for hundreds of years, apparently subsumes constitutionalism. - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
还是要学汉武帝,举孝廉,或者上古的禅让。 老百姓懂什么治国。民选出来的混蛋有的是。哈哈,我也不知道我是开玩笑还是咋地。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
fanghuzhai wrote:
老百姓懂什么治国。民选出来的混蛋有的是。哈哈,我也不知道我是开玩笑还是咋地。
这是用玩笑说出的真理,一句抵政治家的一万句.
- posted on 10/18/2007
st dude wrote:
fengzi说的好. 顶一下.
Fengzi wrote:Just to state the obvious in a simplistic way, democracy has to be coupled with constitutionalism. Our current notion of a democratic system, as exemplarily implemented in the U.S. and practiced for hundreds of years, apparently subsumes constitutionalism.
:)
United Kindom doesn't have a constitution. It has a queen and it's a still a kingdom in 21 century. And my personal feeling in daily life told me there isn't a constitutionlism in politician's mind.
China has one of the best written constituion. I can't see where it lags behind US's constitution. - posted on 10/18/2007
令胡大侠这一招很见功夫,鼓掌!
令胡冲 wrote:
st dude wrote::)
fengzi说的好. 顶一下.
Fengzi wrote:Just to state the obvious in a simplistic way, democracy has to be coupled with constitutionalism. Our current notion of a democratic system, as exemplarily implemented in the U.S. and practiced for hundreds of years, apparently subsumes constitutionalism.
United Kindom doesn't have a constitution. It has a queen and it's a still a kingdom in 21 century. And my personal feeling in daily life told me there isn't a constitutionlism in politician's mind.
China has one of the best written constituion. I can't see where it lags behind US's constitution. - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
老方,选举最主要的不在于选混蛋清蛋,在于行使自己的权利和享受行使自己的权利的快感。至于选出来是混蛋,who cares? 要骂就骂自己瞎了眼了,赌注下错了。这样就不用脏手指乱指啦。
fanghuzhai wrote:
还是要学汉武帝,举孝廉,或者上古的禅让。 老百姓懂什么治国。民选出来的混蛋有的是。哈哈,我也不知道我是开玩笑还是咋地。 - posted on 10/18/2007
好啊,党的十七大在如火如荼地召开,民主之风在党内外越刮越甚,而这里却有人在煽阴风点鬼火,与党的方针唱反调,甚至用“希特勒也是民选政府”这样的耸人听闻的标题来影射我们党民主选举出来的新的领导班子。其用心何其毒也。昨天的《人民日报》上刊登的文章就说:“要以扩大党内民主带动人民民主”, “十七大报告中关于“民主”的阐述,可谓亮点迭出”。锦涛同志在十七大报告中谈到坚定不移发展社会主义民主政治时说,“人民民主是社会主义的生命。”将人民民主上升到这样的高度,有着深刻的内涵。但有人却居心叵测地说“民主是政治家们的伎俩”。这不是和党的方针唱反调又是什么?
同志们啊,要警惕这种和党中央不高度保持一致的反动思潮。
abc wrote:
如果采用民主或多数原则,在中国家庭,老妈联合儿子或女儿,很容易对付老爸. 老妈与老爸的不可调和的矛盾只能通过法律而不是民主来解决.
我基本认为民主是政治家们的伎俩. - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
哎,锦涛锦涛的喊,真爽 - posted on 10/18/2007
Linghu's arguments would be a great comeback if the propositions were that Monarchy and democracy are mutually exclusive or that a piece of constitution, without more, is sufficient to warranty individual rights.
But neither of the propositions are present here.
Instead, for the sake of fun and entertainment, Linghu deliberately ignores the well known facts that
United Kingdom not only has a constitution, but has a longest history of constitutionalism. Manga Carta, the first instrument which espoused the whole ideal and theory of constitution dates back to the 13th century in England. In fact, UK still has a queen, but it is constitutional monarchy. The queen is bound by the constitution and is not above the of law.
In addition, LIngHu failed to produce any fact to support his claim that the "China has the best written constitution。
Finally, the differences between the two constitutions, China's v. U.S.'s, are not in the words used or the documents themselves, But in the respect and faith of the citizens, the reliance upon by the citizens, and their practical operation in the courts and omnipresent effects in the daily life.
令胡冲 wrote:
United Kindom doesn't have a constitution. It has a queen and it's a still a kingdom in 21 century. And my personal feeling in daily life told me there isn't a constitutionlism in politician's mind.
China has one of the best written constituion. I can't see where it lags behind US's constitution. - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
多数统治加上保护少数基本权利我以为是很abc的东西,不知何故在争辩。
多数原则弊端很大,少数原则就好了?除非你是贵族,你绝不会拥戴少数原则。
说民主是政治家们的伎俩就像说糖果是牙医的伎俩。说实话,政治家需要用民主作伎俩,已经是一个不小的进步了。
我如果不用把你当人看,我她妈的还用民主当遮羞布?
abc wrote:
非常同意!多数原则弊端很大.
我基本认为民主是政治家们的伎俩. - posted on 10/18/2007
abc wrote:
从家庭或企业的经验看,必须给予最高领导充分的权力,企业或家庭才更有活力. 对家庭或企业最高领导约束太多,不仅领导很生气,后果也很严重.
布什同志一定很欣赏这话。
我想,一个切实可行的政治体制,不会对最高领导有太多的约束. 因此,最高领导的个人特质将对国家命运产生重要的影响.
希特勒对德国,金对朝鲜,毛邓对中国. 是个人的原因,还是制度的原因呢? 我认为是个人的原因.
正是因为个人特质的难以逆料,才必须有适当的体制约束。
东西冷战,东方败下阵来,与其说是政治制度的原因,不如说是经济制度的原因. 虽然东方集团的政治理念更容易选择计划经济, 但不是绝对的,也不是永远的, 邓的中国就是一个例子.
到目前为止,市场经济还是最好的经济制度. 市场经济对政治制度没有前提要求,这是人民的幸运. 如果只有民选政治才能实行市场经济,非民选政治的人民就很痛苦了.
对人民而言,经济远比政治重要. 所以只要实行了市场经济,对政治改良的愿望就不会太迫切. 就象我们目前对新能源的寻找不那么迫切一样.
当然,民选政府可以每几年换一次领导, 可以有效阻止领导的无能或为恶. 这是民选政府政治制度的优势. 不过我们也不可以过分夸大民选政府政治制度的优越性. 真理往前一步就成谬误.
如果国家不是个人财产,宪法为上,以法治国是理性政治的必然选择.
如果国家沦为某集团的财产呢? 这个问题比较敏感与复杂,我在此撇下不谈.
呵呵。
宪法为上,以法治国与经济制度有点类似,对最高领导或最高领导集团没有什么前提要求.
预设制衡机制。
- posted on 10/18/2007
Fengzi wrote:
Instead, for the sake of fun and entertainment, Linghu deliberately ignores the well known facts that
United Kingdom not only has a constitution, but has a longest history of constitutionalism. Manga Carta, the first instrument which espoused the whole ideal and theory of constitution dates back to the 13th century in England. In fact, UK still has a queen, but it is constitutional monarchy. The queen is bound by the constitution and is not above the of law.
Fengzi knows Manga Carta :)
UK doesn't have a written constituion, but it has an unwritten one. So in the end we both are right. :)
You can pass the Citizenship exam, Mr fengzi.
Politics is just like a large-scale project - it's the implementation, the real-world deed, that matters. The document or design itself doesn't matter since there is established design pattern or called Best Practice in it - in the end, it's not easy to write up some stupid documents, but it can go stupid easily in implementation.
UK does have a constitution tradition. :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/talking_politics/88136.stm
--------
UK Politics: Talking Politics
Does the UK have a constitution?
The 300-year-old Bill of Rights was ammended in 1996 to allow Neil Hamilton to pursue his libel action against The Guardian
By BBC Constitutional Affairs Correspondent Joshua Rozenberg.
The constitution of a country is a set of rules regulating the powers of its government and the rights and duties of its citizens.
In all but a handful of democracies in the world, the nation's constitution can be found in a single document. The exceptions are Israel, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
As a result, people sometimes say that we in Britain do not have a constitution.
It is true that there is no enacted document in which the constitution can be found (unlike the Republic of Ireland, for example, or the United States).
It is also true that we do not have 'constitutional' laws - laws of fundamental importance that can only be changed through some special legislative procedure.
Thus the Bill of Rights 1689 could easily be amended in 1996 so that the former MP Neil Hamilton could pursue his libel action against the Guardian.
An 'unwritten constitution'?
But the United Kingdom does have a constitution; it is just a little hard to track down.
People frequently say we have an 'unwritten constitution' in the United Kingdom.
Professor Vernon Bogdanor of Oxford University dismisses this as a 'misleading platitude'.
As he explains, much of our constitution is to be found in written documents or statutes such as Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, the Act of Settlement and the Parliament Acts.
There will soon be other documents on this distinguished list, as explained in the section on new constitutional measures.
Professor Bogdanor prefers to call Britain's constitution historic. By that he means it has evolved over the years, the product of historical development rather than deliberate design.
But 'historic' does not mean 'old-fashioned'. Our constitution is evolving so quickly at present that only an on-line version of it can be entirely up to date.
- posted on 10/18/2007
LingHuChong wrote:
Fengzi wrote:Fengzi knows Manga Carta :)
Instead, for the sake of fun and entertainment, Linghu deliberately ignores the well known facts that
United Kingdom not only has a constitution, but has a longest history of constitutionalism. Manga Carta, the first instrument which espoused the whole ideal and theory of constitution dates back to the 13th century in England. In fact, UK still has a queen, but it is constitutional monarchy. The queen is bound by the constitution and is not above the of law.
UK doesn't have a written constituion, but it has an unwritten one. So in the end we both are right. :)
You can pass the Citizenship exam, Mr fengzi.
Politics is just like a large-scale project - it's the implementation, the real-world deed, that matters. The document or design itself doesn't matter since there is established design pattern or called Best Practice in it - in the end, it's not easy to write up some stupid documents, but it can go stupid easily in implementation.
UK does have a constitution tradition. :)
should be called Magna Carta, Latin. I don't believe this count. I believe the real practice.
until Glorious Revolution, King/Queen is still everything.
Same with American Constitution.
that's why MLK.
- posted on 10/18/2007
这么敏感的话题,讨论了这么久,居然没有揪出哪怕是一个阶级敌人,还尽是些互拍马屁,互相恭维,我看算是白讨论了:))
记得迪伦马特有一部《贵妇还乡》吗? 那基本可以回答少数多数的问题,所以民主是条死胡同,多数原则无解。
再回到宪政(或称多数服从少数的冠冕借口:)),也推荐一个美国老愤青Micheal Parenti, 他的专著《Democracy for the Few 》三十年来已经再版到第八次,据说在大学本科生中受欢迎程度不亚于当年的方励之:)另有专家批语: “Parenti is more readable than Noam Chomsky, and more serious than Michael Moore.”
抄几个章节的标题:
Chapter 4: A Constitution for the Few
Class Power in Early America
Containing the Spread of Democracy
Fragmenting Majority Power
Plotters or Patriots?
Democratic Concessions
Chapter 15: Congress: The Pocketing of Power
A Congress for the Money
Lobbyists: The Other Lawmakers
The Varieties of Corruption
Special-Interests, Secrecy, and Manipulation
The Legislative Labyrinth
Term Limits
Legislative Democracy Under Siege
Chapter 16: The President: Guardian of the System
Salesman of the System
The Two Faces of the President
Feds vs. States
A Loaded Electoral College
The Rise of Executive Power
The Would-be King
The Class Power Context
Chapter 19: Democracy for the Few
Pluralism for the Few
The Limits of Reform
Democracy as Class Struggle
The Roles of the State
What Is to Be Done?
The Reality of Public Production
http://www.michaelparenti.org/
不过这都是第八版的标题,与我买的第三版文字出入很大,但精髓估计应该保持一致。所以我粗略翻了翻就打入冷藏,除了过时的数据,新鲜思想不多,与自己一贯的愤青思维路数大同小异:))
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
证明给我看看。
WOA wrote:
民主是条死胡同,多数原则无解。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
证明啊? 用实例吧。美国总统有十个选了不能退货的,美国以外的,自己scroll up往上找:))
touche wrote:
证明给我看看。
WOA wrote:
民主是条死胡同,多数原则无解。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
大宪章是不可低估的。它不是一纸空文。它是贵族们迫使国王签的。不能不经同意征税。不能随意处置臣民。没有大宪章,就没有后来的一切。有了这么个前例,后来口子就越开越大,以至于贱民们也闹哄哄了。
这在东方专制皇权中是不可想象的。你只能期望皇帝拎得清,自觉地做好皇帝。他不干,你能怎么样?你只能说民主是是政治家的伎俩。然后龙颜大悦,赏你一串铜钱。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
这证明怎么拿得出手?
美国总统是选出来干四年的。不行四年后退货。实在不行四年中强行退货,是为弹劾。
WOA wrote:
证明啊? 用实例吧。美国总统有十个选了不能退货的,美国以外的,自己scroll up往上找:))
- posted on 10/18/2007
那是那是,在我看来宪章最重要,超过大多数准则。只是宪章写好了让谁去批改,美国人请了上帝,英国人请了女王,日本人请了天皇,中国去请谁呢? 谁有最新的版本没?是不是还要解放全人类哈?:))
touche wrote:
大宪章是不可低估的。它不是一纸空文。它是贵族们迫使国王签的。不能不经同意征税。不能随意处置臣民。没有大宪章,就没有后来的一切。有了这么个前例,后来口子就越开越大,以至于贱民们也闹哄哄了。
这在东方专制皇权中是不可想象的。你只能期望皇帝拎得清,自觉地做好皇帝。他不干,你能怎么样?你只能说民主是是政治家的伎俩。然后龙颜大悦,赏你一串铜钱。 - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
反正你住的近,那就麻烦透兄下班以后去白宫弹一弹(四年前不早就该弹了嘛:))
touche wrote:
这证明怎么拿得出手?
美国总统是选出来干四年的。不行四年后退货。实在不行四年中强行退货,是为弹劾。
WOA wrote:
证明啊? 用实例吧。美国总统有十个选了不能退货的,美国以外的,自己scroll up往上找:))
- posted on 10/18/2007
touche wrote:
大宪章是不可低估的。它不是一纸空文。它是贵族们迫使国王签的。不能不经同意征税。不能随意处置臣民。没有大宪章,就没有后来的一切。有了这么个前例,后来口子就越开越大,以至于贱民们也闹哄哄了。
这里面有没有基督教的思想在作怪?还是纯粹的贵族国王的争锋。如
果仅是后者,那中国六朝时,皇亲国戚还要到贵族家去学礼仪:)
从安茹王朝到斯图亚特王朝,怕血统都没有了吧?这契约还有多少继
承性?
http://www.mayacafe.com/forum/topic1sp.php3?tkey=1111172067
要说,这革命也是克伦威尔,一个强人,查里一世“无能”而起。这
以前不久,享利八世要杀谁就杀谁,伊丽莎白一世也一样。多少贵族
功臣关了伦敦塔,还有挖肠断肢割生殖器的凌迟刑:
http://www.mayacafe.com/forum/topic1sp.php3?tkey=1132690115 1533年,享利八世迫使议院通过法令,宣布他是英国教会的首领。此
外,他与安妮*博林重婚也被认为有效,而博林之女(即后来的伊丽莎
白女王)则被宣布为英国王位合法继承人。全英国最杰出的人物,包
括摩尔在内,都必须宣誓承认英国是国教会的首领。摩尔因拒绝而被
关进伦敦塔。他在那里关了一年多。他坚不吐露他拒绝宣誓的理由。
1537年7月1日,他经由法庭特种委员会审讯,有一个暗中派到狱中摆
布他的名叫里奇的人,出面作假证来控告他。摩尔为自己辩护,神色
自若。可是,他还是被判有罪。判词是:送他回到伦敦塔,从那儿把
他拖过全伦敦城解到泰柏恩行刑场,在场上把他吊起来,让他累半死
,再从绳索上解开,乘他没断气,割去他的生殖器,挖出他的肚肠,
撕下他的心肺放在火上烧,然后肢解他,把他的四肢分钉在四座城门
上,把他的头挂在伦敦桥上。
可是英王命令单把他断头,以代替这种刑罚。摩尔听见后说:天呀!
救救我的朋友们免叨这样的恩惠吧!
托马斯*摩尔于1535年7月7日被处死刑。他不屈不挠,视死如归,临
刑前还说笑话。摩尔被禁止最后向人民发出呼吁。他告别了家人,自
己用头巾扎住眼睛,并对刽子手说:我的颈子是短的,好好瞄准,不
要出丑。
摩尔的头终于挂在伦敦桥上示众。
英王继续迫害摩尔的家人,把他妻子从家中逐出,剥夺了她的一切生
活来源。他的儿子有一段时间被囚禁在伦敦塔中。
1886年,天主教会为了把这位人文主义思想的杰出人物列入它的殉道
者之林,追封摩尔为圣徒,尽管摩尔的观点未必正统。
这在东方专制皇权中是不可想象的。你只能期望皇帝拎得清,自觉地做好皇帝。他不干,你能怎么样?你只能说民主是是政治家的伎俩。然后龙颜大悦,赏你一串铜钱。
那“民为贵,社稷次之,君为轻”呢?
还有“水可载舟,亦可覆舟”,还有,“名之为独夫”,还有“王候
将相,宁有种乎?”。。。
我提这么些零件,只想深化一些讨论。
谢谢! - Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
我没有选他啊,也鼓噪着要退货。但是要想一想这不是我和和我一样想法的人民的事,还有那和我们想法不一样的人民啊。不能把和我们意愿不一样的人们的意愿一笔勾销吧?
WOA wrote:
反正你住的近,那就麻烦透兄下班以后去白宫弹一弹(四年前不早就该弹了嘛:))
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/18/2007
touche wrote:
我没有选他啊,也鼓噪着要退货。但是要想一想这不是我和和我一样想法的人民的事,还有那和我们想法不一样的人民啊。不能把和我们意愿不一样的人们的意愿一笔勾销吧?
一瞬间做出的决定,就要背上四年的黑锅,想退也没得退,我猜想大多数人民都在后悔。盖乐普最新公布的布什支持率是百分之二十多吧?反正离半数差的远(不过比婚姻还是要强,至少没让谁摊上一辈子:))。
- posted on 10/18/2007
xw wrote:
这里面有没有基督教的思想在作怪?还是纯粹的贵族国王的争锋。如
果仅是后者,那中国六朝时,皇亲国戚还要到贵族家去学礼仪:)
我想重要的还是实力的较量和妥协。
皇亲国戚还要到贵族家去学礼仪说明不了什么。
要说,这革命也是克伦威尔,一个强人,查里一世“无能”而起。这
以前不久,享利八世要杀谁就杀谁,伊丽莎白一世也一样。多少贵族
功臣关了伦敦塔,还有挖肠断肢割生殖器的凌迟刑:
1533年,享利八世迫使议院通过法令,宣布他是英国教会的首领。此
外,他与安妮*博林重婚也被认为有效,而博林之女(即后来的伊丽莎
白女王)则被宣布为英国王位合法继承人。全英国最杰出的人物,包
括摩尔在内,都必须宣誓承认英国是国教会的首领。摩尔因拒绝而被
关进伦敦塔。他在那里关了一年多。他坚不吐露他拒绝宣誓的理由。
1537年7月1日,他经由法庭特种委员会审讯,有一个暗中派到狱中摆
布他的名叫里奇的人,出面作假证来控告他。摩尔为自己辩护,神色
自若。可是,他还是被判有罪。判词是:送他回到伦敦塔,从那儿把
他拖过全伦敦城解到泰柏恩行刑场,在场上把他吊起来,让他累半死
,再从绳索上解开,乘他没断气,割去他的生殖器,挖出他的肚肠,
撕下他的心肺放在火上烧,然后肢解他,把他的四肢分钉在四座城门
上,把他的头挂在伦敦桥上。
可是英王命令单把他断头,以代替这种刑罚。摩尔听见后说:天呀!
救救我的朋友们免叨这样的恩惠吧!
托马斯*摩尔于1535年7月7日被处死刑。他不屈不挠,视死如归,临
刑前还说笑话。摩尔被禁止最后向人民发出呼吁。他告别了家人,自
己用头巾扎住眼睛,并对刽子手说:我的颈子是短的,好好瞄准,不
要出丑。
摩尔的头终于挂在伦敦桥上示众。
英王继续迫害摩尔的家人,把他妻子从家中逐出,剥夺了她的一切生
活来源。他的儿子有一段时间被囚禁在伦敦塔中。
1886年,天主教会为了把这位人文主义思想的杰出人物列入它的殉道
者之林,追封摩尔为圣徒,尽管摩尔的观点未必正统。
这个都不奇怪。道路是曲折,反反复复的嘛。读政治史,哪一国都使我毛骨悚然。越往前越是如此。你得感谢你生在不是给人随意就一指头捻死的时代和国家。
那“民为贵,社稷次之,君为轻”呢?
还有“水可载舟,亦可覆舟”,还有,“名之为独夫”,还有“王候
将相,宁有种乎?”。。。
有这些,但没有制度化的权力制衡,没有政治游戏规则,没有妥协的习惯,是远远不够的。 - posted on 10/19/2007
touche wrote:
xw wrote:我想重要的还是实力的较量和妥协。
这里面有没有基督教的思想在作怪?还是纯粹的贵族国王的争锋。如
果仅是后者,那中国六朝时,皇亲国戚还要到贵族家去学礼仪:)
是这样的,但还能高出一层,即是扶殖。
贵族就像个好妻子,能扶殖好的丈夫(王/后)。在那些漫长时代空谈
民主是没有用的。还是要讲实力!
以后怕也说不定。罗马王系又共和(585bc),共和了又帝制(27bc)。
皇亲国戚还要到贵族家去学礼仪说明不了什么。
说明贵族能啊。但没有了王,也就天下混乱。王马东晋,当然还是明
白之举。不然满天下都是桓玄,都是刘裕。
要说,这革命也是克伦威尔,一个强人,查里一世“无能”而起。这这个都不奇怪。道路是曲折,反反复复的嘛。读政治史,哪一国都使我毛骨悚然。越往前越是如此。你得感谢你生在不是给人随意就一指头捻死的时代和国家。
以前不久,享利八世要杀谁就杀谁,伊丽莎白一世也一样。多少贵族
功臣关了伦敦塔,还有挖肠断肢割生殖器的凌迟刑:
1533年,享利八世迫使议院通过法令,宣布他是英国教会的首领。此
外,他与安妮*博林重婚也被认为有效,而博林之女(即后来的伊丽莎
白女王)则被宣布为英国王位合法继承人。全英国最杰出的人物,包
括摩尔在内,都必须宣誓承认英国是国教会的首领。摩尔因拒绝而被
关进伦敦塔。他在那里关了一年多。他坚不吐露他拒绝宣誓的理由。
1537年7月1日,他经由法庭特种委员会审讯,有一个暗中派到狱中摆
布他的名叫里奇的人,出面作假证来控告他。摩尔为自己辩护,神色
自若。可是,他还是被判有罪。判词是:送他回到伦敦塔,从那儿把
他拖过全伦敦城解到泰柏恩行刑场,在场上把他吊起来,让他累半死
,再从绳索上解开,乘他没断气,割去他的生殖器,挖出他的肚肠,
撕下他的心肺放在火上烧,然后肢解他,把他的四肢分钉在四座城门
上,把他的头挂在伦敦桥上。
可是英王命令单把他断头,以代替这种刑罚。摩尔听见后说:天呀!
救救我的朋友们免叨这样的恩惠吧!
托马斯*摩尔于1535年7月7日被处死刑。他不屈不挠,视死如归,临
刑前还说笑话。摩尔被禁止最后向人民发出呼吁。他告别了家人,自
己用头巾扎住眼睛,并对刽子手说:我的颈子是短的,好好瞄准,不
要出丑。
摩尔的头终于挂在伦敦桥上示众。
英王继续迫害摩尔的家人,把他妻子从家中逐出,剥夺了她的一切生
活来源。他的儿子有一段时间被囚禁在伦敦塔中。
1886年,天主教会为了把这位人文主义思想的杰出人物列入它的殉道
者之林,追封摩尔为圣徒,尽管摩尔的观点未必正统。
道路是曲折的,这是后话。谈实力,论实行,也许更是我赞同的。英
国的王室多很有出须,贵族薄一些,待贵族厚一些,也懂得存恤,这
里面的交流很得体。昨晚再翻克伦威尔,那时平民思想已出庐,当然
,更早的应是源于托玛斯*阿奎那,当然那只是理论。
如果谈一指头捻死的时代和国家,我生长的那地方,生死还真不像你
想的那么珍稀。说一指头捻死,倒比折磨得死去活来轻松。
古罗马处死刑,能蒙立死的都是高级待遇喽。这里是玩笑:)
那“民为贵,社稷次之,君为轻”呢?有这些,但没有制度化的权力制衡,没有政治游戏规则,没有妥协的习惯,是远远不够的。
还有“水可载舟,亦可覆舟”,还有,“名之为独夫”,还有“王候
将相,宁有种乎?”。。。
是的。但这是实力间的较衡。当年马歇尔九上庐山,那时能联合政府
怕是最好的(当然,老共薄些),这以后,实力怕只能从老共内部分
裂。象美国一样。产业阶层不能产生这了这个实力,或者如亚里斯多
德说的政治道德不够。即使英国资产阶级革命,产业阶层也把实权让
给贵族。
当然,这些与希特勒民选离得太远,随便讨论而已。
- posted on 10/19/2007
There are several issues here. One is about the merits of constitutionalism itself. Another involves the deficiency of constitutionalism in the form as we know it today. Yet another issue concerns the sufficiency of constitutionalism. There are obviously various extraneous views but we don’t have address them all at once here.
With regard to the merits of constitutionalism, a lot can be said from either side. But such a debate is nothing new. Many of the concerns and arguments presented here can be found in The Federalist Papers. Aided with the benefits from experiences accumulated over the centuries after the publication of the book, we can find a few moot and easily reject some. And a few are simply too frivolous to warrant any further discussion. But I am of the simple view that I have faith in constitutionalism and believe it’s a better form of system than any other known alternatives. I’m mindful of its imperfections and do not necessarily believe its universality to the extent I would blindly exclude other possible, better designs in the future. I’m equally aware of arguments that constitutionalism is not applicable in China because of the cultural and historical differences. However, I have failed to how these differences necessarily lead to the inoperability of constitutionalism in China, much less to the implied conclusion that an authoritarian government should be tolerated if not preferred.
I believe in constitutionalism not because it is prefect and free from deficiencies, but because it reflects the collective values and wisdoms of humanity. The proven successes of constitutional democracies in some countries speak volumes for the feasibility of such a system and its intimate connections to the reality. People may attempt to deny the value of a constitution to a state by focusing on the failures of some constitutional states or on the form of constitution. They need to come up with better alternatives or to show the failures or problems were causally related to constitutionalism itself.
Finally, people tend to confuse the necessity with sufficiency. No one here has suggested that by having a constitution all the problems in a society would miraculously disappear. A constitution by itself is nothing but a piece of paper. It will not replace the struggles to continuously search for creative solutions for the problems in our society. The U.S. Constitution did not by itself prevent the highest court of the country from declaring American Africans were “personal properties” (Dred Scott v. Sandford). Nor did it automatically end social segregation until 1960s (Brown v. Board of Education). It did not even end illegalization of interracial marriage in some state until 1970s (Virgina v. Love). It certainly did not give voting rights to women and African Americans by itself. It even failed to provide the equality and justice for all as it promised. However, it was exactly through the framework of the constitution the social injustices were remedied.
My jet lag is again taking over and I have to quit—at least for now until I get back to the States.
- Re: ZT,成王败寇:希特勒也是民选政府posted on 10/19/2007
风子写得好。思路清晰,观点成熟。就是不怎么舍得常写 :)
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